Re: more on Starving Honda

Archived posts from the ANZ Honda 600 Owners Yahoo Group
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zinc2u
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:45 am

Re: more on Starving Honda

Post by zinc2u »

I thought about this some more.  Everything I stated was for the original Honda fuel pump.  I don't have any experience with the after-market fuel pumps being recommended.  They may not have enough suction to operate at a distance of 6 feet from the tank and may need to be placed below tank level.  You will find out when you try it or ask the mfg.
good luck,
Dale
> Hey Brad,
>    When I said to mount the fuel pump under the hood,  I
> did not mean to mount it on the hood.
>    You can mount the electric fuel pump in the engine
> compartment.  Take a look at the n600 sedan.  It has the fuel pump > mounted under the driver side headlight and it is drawing the fuel from the > tank which is 6 feet away.
>     While I can see the advantage of putting the fuel pump > below the level of the fuel tank,  the Honda 600 pumps will pump fuel at > a level above the fuel tank.  What do you think is happening when you are > driving uphill .... the elevation of the pump is above the tank.
> I've used the Honda 600 fuel pumps to pump gas from a 5 gallon fuel canister > into the car and it has not had a problems developing a suction and delivering > fuel to the car.
> Dale
> > I would like to make a correction on the information on this last > > post where he said it is OK to mount fuel pump under the hood. It is NOT OK > > to mount an electric pump under the hood. It should be mounted where the > > original one is near the fuel tank or close to it, it must be mounted below > > the top level of the fuel tank. An electric pump has low suction > > capabilities so has a hard time sucking fuel a distance but has good pushing > > capability and can push the fuel a distance,it is known as a Pusher pump.
> > Now a mechanical pump is the opposite, It has great suction capability and > > can suck fuel a distance as from the tank to the engine and is called a > > Suction Pump. Now an electric pump will work up front but can have problems > > loosing prim and other issues. I hope this sheds some light on fuel pump > > operation. Brad @ Classic Auto Service Dallas > > --- In > > anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com > > , > > goinhm@... wrote:
> > > Hi Laurie,
> > > Below I have
> > copied a msg which Bill C published on fuel pumps. It > > > kinda looks > > like the same pump which Lyle mentions in his msg. Not sure if
> > these will fit in the compartment on your coupe.
> > > For the
> > coupe, the fuel pump and fuel filter are in the same > > > compartment > > under the rear seat (driver's side). Have you looked at the fuel
> > filter to see if it is looking like it contains particles. If your new fuel
> > > pump does will not fit in the same compartment, you can relocate it > > under > > > the hood. You would need to remove the existing pump and > > splice the two > > > fuel lines together. Home Depot sells barbed brass > > splice connectors and > > > stainless steel clamps in the plumbing > > department which will work.
> > > For starters, I would remove
> > the rear seats and existing fuel pump.
> > > I would then attach a new
> > fuel pump (and if it doesn't fit into the
> > > compartment, that is ok.
> > Let it lay on the bench where the seat is attahced).
> > > You might need
> > to buy some fuel hose, splices, and clamps to do this. Then > > > run the > > car and see if the problem is resolved. If it is, then you can
> > figure out where to locate the fuel pump.
> > > Here is the msg
> > from Bill;
> > > Or you can go here and use an after
> > market inline pump to push your fuel
> > > to the carb. And for as little
> > as $18.00. If your pump is not working you
> > > can leave it in place
> > and run the fuel hose to the filter in the same place > > > and hook up > > your new fuel pump in rear by the tank where all the new pumps > > > are.
> > And no one will know the difference.
> > http://www.discountfuelsystems.com/shop ... XXX&PN=&Nr
> > =AND(category:Fuel+Delivery,universal:0)
> > > &Ntt=fuel+pump
> > > The big difference is that these are new pumps not
> > something sitting on
> > > the shelf for the past 30 years.
> > > Bill
> > > Good luck,
> > > Dale
> > > Hi Laurie, any
> > electric pump that is low pressure 2-4 PSI will work.
> > > This would be
> > a good choice:
> > http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp ... _electric-
> > fuel-pump-airtex_5773407-p
> > > Carter also makes one.
> > Lyle
> > > --- In
> > _anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > _
> > > (mailto:
> > anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > )
> > , "laurie_randall@" wrote:
> > Hi all!
> > > > My beautiful,restored '72 z600 baby car came home on a > > flat bed last > > > Fri.Noticed a "howling" noise from behind me. Uh,oh.I > > think the fuel pump is > > > unhappy. Tried to proceed.Didn't get > > far.Came home not like we left.Did get > > > it started again this past > > weekend after checking fuel level,venting > > > etc.turned on the car and > > pump made it's normal click,click and floop,floop > > > sounds. Started > > her up and she ran for awhile (5 min or so) then the howling
> > started again and engine slowly quit and died.Stepping on the accelerator > > did > > > nothing.Soooo,i believe it is the pump.Does anyone know where i > > might find a > > > Working fuel pump used,New,or alternative??
> > > Thanx,Laurie
Bill
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:34 am

Re: more on Starving Honda

Post by Bill »

You are all correct, in that the pumps manufacturer will have mounting instructions with the pump and recommendations as to where it will do its best.  Buy the engine, at the fuel tank or inside the fuel tank.
It's been my experience that any after market fuel pump will give you choices along with safety tips for installation.  Remember that the wires hooked up to the original pump will have to be modified to make the new pump work.
Bill
Brad
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:02 am

Re: more on Starving Honda

Post by Brad »

I had decided to do a study on fuel pumps and mounting locations several years ago when I had realized that in the over 35 years in the auto business I have never once seen a car with an electric fuel pump mounted near the engine of a car or above the top level of the gas tank. If you can name a car that the factory mounted an electric pump above the tank level or at opposite end of the car from the tank I would like to know. I am a master auto tech and have been trained by several car manufactures on fuel and emission systems and have some training in aeronautics and no one ever covered fuel pump mounting locations in any of my training so I did an online study on this subject along with correct filter mounting locations and microns to use for applications and that was my findings.
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Bill" wrote:
> You are all correct, in that the pumps manufacturer will have mounting
> instructions with the pump and recommendations as to where it will do its
> best. Buy the engine, at the fuel tank or inside the fuel tank. It's been
> my experience that any after market fuel pump will give you choices along
> with safety tips for installation. Remember that the wires hooked up to the
> original pump will have to be modified to make the new pump work.
> Bill
> _____
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
] On Behalf Of goinhm@...
> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 11:13 PM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: more on Starving Honda
> I thought about this some more. Everything I stated was for the original
> Honda fuel pump. I don't have any experience with the after-market fuel
> pumps being recommended. They may not have enough suction to operate at a
> distance of 6 feet from the tank and may need to be placed below tank level.
> You will find out when you try it or ask the mfg.
> good luck,
> Dale
> Hey Brad,
> When I said to mount the fuel pump under the hood, I did not mean to
> mount it on the hood.
> You can mount the electric fuel pump in the engine compartment. Take a
> look at the n600 sedan. It has the fuel pump mounted under the driver side
> headlight and it is drawing the fuel from the tank which is 6 feet away.
> While I can see the advantage of putting the fuel pump below the level
> of the fuel tank, the Honda 600 pumps will pump fuel at a level above the
> fuel tank. What do you think is happening when you are driving uphill ....
> the elevation of the pump is above the tank. I've used the Honda 600 fuel
> pumps to pump gas from a 5 gallon fuel canister into the car and it has not
> had a problems developing a suction and delivering fuel to the car.
> Dale
> I would like to make a correction on the information on this last post where
> he said it is OK to mount fuel pump under the hood. It is NOT OK to mount an
> electric pump under the hood. It should be mounted where the original one is
> near the fuel tank or close to it, it must be mounted below the top level of
> the fuel tank. An electric pump has low suction capabilities so has a hard
> time sucking fuel a distance but has good pushing capability and can push
> the fuel a distance,it is known as a Pusher pump. Now a mechanical pump is
> the opposite, It has great suction capability and can suck fuel a distance
> as from the tank to the engine and is called a Suction Pump. Now an electric
> pump will work up front but can have problems loosing prim and other issues.
> I hope this sheds some light on fuel pump operation. Brad @ Classic Auto
> Service Dallas
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> , goinhm@ wrote:
> > Hi Laurie,
> > Below I have copied a msg which Bill C published on fuel pumps. It
> > kinda looks like the same pump which Lyle mentions in his msg. Not sure if
> > these will fit in the compartment on your coupe.
> > For the coupe, the fuel pump and fuel filter are in the same
> > compartment under the rear seat (driver's side). Have you looked at the
> fuel
> > filter to see if it is looking like it contains particles. If your new
> fuel
> > pump does will not fit in the same compartment, you can relocate it under
> > the hood. You would need to remove the existing pump and splice the two
> > fuel lines together. Home Depot sells barbed brass splice connectors and
> > stainless steel clamps in the plumbing department which will work.
> > For starters, I would remove the rear seats and existing fuel pump.
> > I would then attach a new fuel pump (and if it doesn't fit into the
> > compartment, that is ok. Let it lay on the bench where the seat is
> attahced).
> > You might need to buy some fuel hose, splices, and clamps to do this. Then
> > run the car and see if the problem is resolved. If it is, then you can
> > figure out where to locate the fuel pump.
> > Here is the msg from Bill;
> > Or you can go here and use an after market inline pump to push your fuel
> > to the carb. And for as little as $18.00. If your pump is not working you
> > can leave it in place and run the fuel hose to the filter in the same
> place
> > and hook up your new fuel pump in rear by the tank where all the new pumps
> > are. And no one will know the difference.
http://www.discountfuelsystems.com/shop/?N=0
> r> &VN=XXX-XXX-XXXX+XXX-XXX-XXXX&PN=&Nr
> > =AND(category:Fuel+Delivery,universal:0)
> > &Ntt=fuel+pump
> > The big difference is that these are new pumps not something sitting on
> > the shelf for the past 30 years.
> > Bill
> > Good luck,
> > Dale
> > Hi Laurie, any electric pump that is low pressure 2-4 PSI will work.
> > This would be a good choice:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp ... _electric-
> > fuel-pump-airtex_5773407-p
> > Carter also makes one.
> > Lyle
> > --- In
_anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> _
> > (mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ) , "laurie_randall@"
> wrote:
> > > Hi all!
> > > My beautiful,restored '72 z600 baby car came home on a flat bed last
> > Fri.Noticed a "howling" noise from behind me. Uh,oh.I think the fuel pump
> is
> > unhappy. Tried to proceed.Didn't get far.Came home not like we left.Did
> get
> > it started again this past weekend after checking fuel level,venting
> > etc.turned on the car and pump made it's normal click,click and
> floop,floop
> > sounds. Started her up and she ran for awhile (5 min or so) then the
> howling
> > started again and engine slowly quit and died.Stepping on the accelerator
> did
> > nothing.Soooo,i believe it is the pump.Does anyone know where i might find
> a
> > Working fuel pump used,New,or alternative??
> > > Thanx,Laurie
Brad
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:02 am

Re: more on Starving Honda

Post by Brad »

And just one more thing, Why did Honda mount the fuel pump where they did ?
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "brad" wrote:
> I had decided to do a study on fuel pumps and mounting locations several years ago when I had realized that in the over 35 years in the auto business I have never once seen a car with an electric fuel pump mounted near the engine of a car or above the top level of the gas tank. If you can name a car that the factory mounted an electric pump above the tank level or at opposite end of the car from the tank I would like to know. I am a master auto tech and have been trained by several car manufactures on fuel and emission systems and have some training in aeronautics and no one ever covered fuel pump mounting locations in any of my training so I did an online study on this subject along with correct filter mounting locations and microns to use for applications and that was my findings.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Bill" wrote:
> > You are all correct, in that the pumps manufacturer will have mounting
> > instructions with the pump and recommendations as to where it will do its
> > best. Buy the engine, at the fuel tank or inside the fuel tank. It's been
> > my experience that any after market fuel pump will give you choices along
> > with safety tips for installation. Remember that the wires hooked up to the
> > original pump will have to be modified to make the new pump work.
> > Bill
> > _____
> > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
] On Behalf Of goinhm@
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 11:13 PM
> > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: more on Starving Honda
> > I thought about this some more. Everything I stated was for the original
> > Honda fuel pump. I don't have any experience with the after-market fuel
> > pumps being recommended. They may not have enough suction to operate at a
> > distance of 6 feet from the tank and may need to be placed below tank level.
> > You will find out when you try it or ask the mfg.
> > good luck,
> > Dale
> > Hey Brad,
> > When I said to mount the fuel pump under the hood, I did not mean to
> > mount it on the hood.
> > You can mount the electric fuel pump in the engine compartment. Take a
> > look at the n600 sedan. It has the fuel pump mounted under the driver side
> > headlight and it is drawing the fuel from the tank which is 6 feet away.
> > While I can see the advantage of putting the fuel pump below the level
> > of the fuel tank, the Honda 600 pumps will pump fuel at a level above the
> > fuel tank. What do you think is happening when you are driving uphill ....
> > the elevation of the pump is above the tank. I've used the Honda 600 fuel
> > pumps to pump gas from a 5 gallon fuel canister into the car and it has not
> > had a problems developing a suction and delivering fuel to the car.
> > Dale
> > I would like to make a correction on the information on this last post where
> > he said it is OK to mount fuel pump under the hood. It is NOT OK to mount an
> > electric pump under the hood. It should be mounted where the original one is
> > near the fuel tank or close to it, it must be mounted below the top level of
> > the fuel tank. An electric pump has low suction capabilities so has a hard
> > time sucking fuel a distance but has good pushing capability and can push
> > the fuel a distance,it is known as a Pusher pump. Now a mechanical pump is
> > the opposite, It has great suction capability and can suck fuel a distance
> > as from the tank to the engine and is called a Suction Pump. Now an electric
> > pump will work up front but can have problems loosing prim and other issues.
> > I hope this sheds some light on fuel pump operation. Brad @ Classic Auto
> > Service Dallas
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > , goinhm@ wrote:
> > > Hi Laurie,
> > > Below I have copied a msg which Bill C published on fuel pumps. It
> > > kinda looks like the same pump which Lyle mentions in his msg. Not sure if
> > > these will fit in the compartment on your coupe.
> > > For the coupe, the fuel pump and fuel filter are in the same
> > > compartment under the rear seat (driver's side). Have you looked at the
> > fuel
> > > filter to see if it is looking like it contains particles. If your new
> > fuel
> > > pump does will not fit in the same compartment, you can relocate it under
> > > the hood. You would need to remove the existing pump and splice the two
> > > fuel lines together. Home Depot sells barbed brass splice connectors and
> > > stainless steel clamps in the plumbing department which will work.
> > > For starters, I would remove the rear seats and existing fuel pump.
> > > I would then attach a new fuel pump (and if it doesn't fit into the
> > > compartment, that is ok. Let it lay on the bench where the seat is
> > attahced).
> > > You might need to buy some fuel hose, splices, and clamps to do this. Then
> > > run the car and see if the problem is resolved. If it is, then you can
> > > figure out where to locate the fuel pump.
> > > Here is the msg from Bill;
> > > Or you can go here and use an after market inline pump to push your fuel
> > > to the carb. And for as little as $18.00. If your pump is not working you
> > > can leave it in place and run the fuel hose to the filter in the same
> > place
> > > and hook up your new fuel pump in rear by the tank where all the new pumps
> > > are. And no one will know the difference.
http://www.discountfuelsystems.com/shop/?N=0
> > > r> &VN=XXX-XXX-XXXX+XXX-XXX-XXXX&PN=&Nr
> > > =AND(category:Fuel+Delivery,universal:0)
> > > &Ntt=fuel+pump
> > > The big difference is that these are new pumps not something sitting on
> > > the shelf for the past 30 years.
> > > Bill
> > > Good luck,
> > > Dale
> > > Hi Laurie, any electric pump that is low pressure 2-4 PSI will work.
> > > This would be a good choice:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp ... _electric-
> > > fuel-pump-airtex_5773407-p
> > > Carter also makes one.
> > > Lyle
> > > --- In
_anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > _
> > > (mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > ) , "laurie_randall@"
> > wrote:
> > > > Hi all!
> > > > My beautiful,restored '72 z600 baby car came home on a flat bed last
> > > Fri.Noticed a "howling" noise from behind me. Uh,oh.I think the fuel pump
> > is
> > > unhappy. Tried to proceed.Didn't get far.Came home not like we left.Did
> > get
> > > it started again this past weekend after checking fuel level,venting
> > > etc.turned on the car and pump made it's normal click,click and
> > floop,floop
> > > sounds. Started her up and she ran for awhile (5 min or so) then the
> > howling
> > > started again and engine slowly quit and died.Stepping on the accelerator
> > did
> > > nothing.Soooo,i believe it is the pump.Does anyone know where i might find
> > a
> > > Working fuel pump used,New,or alternative??
> > > > Thanx,Laurie
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