Re: cooling fan

[dm600z]

I am not seeing the advantage to using an electric fan.  I can see it creating problems for your car.
1.  The stock fan moves a lot of air and it is variable speed.
The electric fans being suggested are not moving enough air.
2.   The stock fan has a specially designed cooling shroud which is pulling air across a large number of fins in the cylinder barrels.  What are you using for the electric fan?
3.  While the electric fan may do a good job when you are stopped or moving slowly,  how well is it working when you are travelling at 60 mph?  And is it allowing the air to properly move across the fins or is it impeding the air flow?
4.  The stock plastic fan and belt assembly is such a small mass that it requires very little power to operate.  The fan belts don't wear out due to use as much as they come apart due to aging.
5.  I don't think the electric fan gives you a horsepower gain unless it is not operating.  The stock system is a mechanical transfer to a low mass system.  The electric fan is running off of electricity which must be supplied by the engine's electrical system.  So,  you have a mechanical system driving an electrical generating system to operate an electric fan which is driving a mechanical fan.  How can that be more efficient than a direct mechanical connection? If both fans (the stock system and the electric fan) are moving the same air volume,  the stock system must be more efficient.
    And for the person who says "my dragster uses an electric fan because I want more horsepower to the wheels".  We are not talking the same thing.  Your dragster has a battery on board which is not being charged by the engine and you are using the battery to run the electric fan.  And the fan is only needed during staging and not when you are running the 1/4 mile.
6.   These cars are air-cooled and the role of the fan is very important.  When you have the hood down and the car is travelling fast,  you need a good system to keep the air flowing out of the engine compartment.  The stock system does this job very well.
As you might guess,  I'll be sticking with the stock cooling system since it hasn't been a problem for me.
Dale

> Jeez, why didn't we all think of this?  Gain slight
> horsepower, no belt maintenance or replacement, faster delivery of engine heat > to the cabin...
> Good on ya'!
> On Thursday, September 4, 2014 10:09 AM,
> "Dr. Whiting theenginebuilder@... [2cylinderhondas]"
> wrote:
> > From a practical sense, studs would make the removal of the fan housing > > more difficult. Not much clearance to start with and there is no improvement > > in strength.

[Charles Gould]

I agree with Dale on this one, plus I'll add one more reason. I have more trust in Honda's extensive research and design efforts in developing the proper ad adequate system for cooling this engine than to think that slapping an electric fan on would improve that design, and any shortcomings in the new electric fan design might not be realized until overheating has occurred causing considerable damage. Honda recognized the horsepower limitation of this tiny engine and would not have incorporated a power robbing fan. Finally, if it ain't broke, why fix it. The guys at Honda were pretty intelligent.
Chas Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 6, 2014, at 2:03 AM, "
goinhm@...
[2cylinderhondas]" wrote:
I am not seeing the advantage to using an electric fan.  I can see it creating problems for your car.
1.  The stock fan moves a lot of air and it is variable speed.
The electric fans being suggested are not moving enough air.
2.   The stock fan has a specially designed cooling shroud which is pulling air across a large number of fins in the cylinder barrels.  What are you using for the electric fan?
3.  While the electric fan may do a good job when you are stopped or moving slowly,  how well is it working when you are travelling at 60 mph?  And is it allowing the air to properly move across the fins or is it impeding the air flow?
4.  The stock plastic fan and belt assembly is such a small mass that it requires very little power to operate.  The fan belts don't wear out due to use as much as they come apart due to aging.
5.  I don't think the electric fan gives you a horsepower gain unless it is not operating.  The stock system is a mechanical transfer to a low mass system.  The electric fan is running off of electricity which must be supplied by the engine's electrical system.  So,  you have a mechanical system driving an electrical generating system to operate an electric fan which is driving a mechanical fan.  How can that be more efficient than a direct mechanical connection? If both fans (the stock system and the electric fan) are moving the same air volume,  the stock system must be more efficient.
And for the person who says "my dragster uses an
electric fan because I want more horsepower to the wheels".  We are not talking the same thing.  Your dragster has a battery on board which is not being charged by the engine and you are using the battery to run the electric fan.  And the fan is only needed during staging and not when you are running the 1/4 mile.
6.   These cars are air-cooled and the role of the fan is very important.  When you have the hood down and the car is travelling fast,  you need a good system to keep the air flowing out of the engine compartment.  The stock system does this job very well.
As you might guess,  I'll be sticking with the stock cooling system since it hasn't been a problem for me.
Dale
> Jeez, why didn't we all think of this?  Gain slight
> horsepower, no belt maintenance or replacement, faster delivery of engine heat > to the cabin...
> Good on ya'!
> On Thursday, September 4, 2014 10:09 AM,
> "Dr. Whiting
> theenginebuilder@...
> [2cylinderhondas]"
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > wrote:
> > From a practical sense, studs would make the removal of the fan housing > > more difficult. Not much clearance to start with and there is no improvement > > in strength.

[Don B Laughton]

At AHM, the Japanese told us that fan was only needed in traffic. Once in motion, air flow thru the grille and the cylinder side shrouding were enough to do the job.
Back in the day, I sold plenty of shroud and fan housing cushions. The real problem was broken bosses for the mounting bolts....not an easy or cheap fix.
Extra HP?  Not that you would notice.
Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 5, 2014, at 11:03 PM, "
goinhm@...
[2cylinderhondas]" wrote:
I am not seeing the advantage to using an electric fan.  I can see it creating problems for your car.
1.  The stock fan moves a lot of air and it is variable speed.
The electric fans being suggested are not moving enough air.
2.   The stock fan has a specially designed cooling shroud which is pulling air across a large number of fins in the cylinder barrels.  What are you using for the electric fan?
3.  While the electric fan may do a good job when you are stopped or moving slowly,  how well is it working when you are travelling at 60 mph?  And is it allowing the air to properly move across the fins or is it impeding the air flow?
4.  The stock plastic fan and belt assembly is such a small mass that it requires very little power to operate.  The fan belts don't wear out due to use as much as they come apart due to aging.
5.  I don't think the electric fan gives you a horsepower gain unless it is not operating.  The stock system is a mechanical transfer to a low mass system.  The electric fan is running off of electricity which must be supplied by the engine's electrical system.  So,  you have a mechanical system driving an electrical generating system to operate an electric fan which is driving a mechanical fan.  How can that be more efficient than a direct mechanical connection? If both fans (the stock system and the electric fan) are moving the same air volume,  the stock system must be more efficient.
And for the person who says "my dragster uses an
electric fan because I want more horsepower to the wheels".  We are not talking the same thing.  Your dragster has a battery on board which is not being charged by the engine and you are using the battery to run the electric fan.  And the fan is only needed during staging and not when you are running the 1/4 mile.
6.   These cars are air-cooled and the role of the fan is very important.  When you have the hood down and the car is travelling fast,  you need a good system to keep the air flowing out of the engine compartment.  The stock system does this job very well.
As you might guess,  I'll be sticking with the stock cooling system since it hasn't been a problem for me.
Dale
> Jeez, why didn't we all think of this?  Gain slight
> horsepower, no belt maintenance or replacement, faster delivery of engine heat > to the cabin...
> Good on ya'!
> On Thursday, September 4, 2014 10:09 AM,
> "Dr. Whiting
> theenginebuilder@...
> [2cylinderhondas]"
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > wrote:
> > From a practical sense, studs would make the removal of the fan housing > > more difficult. Not much clearance to start with and there is no improvement > > in strength.

[feltonminicycle]

My first electric fan design incorporated the original shroud. The GL1000 blades had to be shortened by 1/4" and I ran it on various cars I drove for 20 years, the same fan and today is still out there somewhere either on Truckster or Dinky living in Savannah GA.
I've rebuilt about 400 engines since 1979 when I first started and the most frequently broken bolt on a Honda 600 is the fan shroud bolt. I was constantly taking them to Puccio Welding in San Jose and he would TIG weld on a post and unscrew them. The factory bolts were hardened steel, hard to drill and EZ Out.
I have nothing against the stock set up as long as all 4 bolts can secure with correct mounting hardware and a lot of people don't even realize there was special cupped washers on the inside as well - under the rubber mounts. They are a different shape and I normally glue them on prior to assembling the fan.
Miles

[Bryan O_Shaughnessy]

Miles, what was the purpose of the special cupped washers? Vibration suppression, I would suppose?  ---Bryan O
On Saturday, September 6, 2014 1:28 PM, "z600miles@... [2cylinderhondas]" wrote:

> My first electric fan design incorporated the original shroud. The GL1000 blades had to be shortened by 1/4" and I ran it on various cars I drove for 20 years, the same fan and today is still out there somewhere either on Truckster or Dinky living in Savannah GA.
> I've rebuilt about 400 engines since 1979 when I first started and the most frequently broken bolt on a Honda 600 is the fan shroud bolt. I was constantly taking them to Puccio Welding in San Jose and he would TIG weld on a post and unscrew them. The factory bolts were hardened steel, hard to drill and EZ Out.
> I have nothing against the stock set up as long as all 4 bolts can secure with correct mounting hardware and a lot of people don't even realize there was special cupped washers on the inside as well - under the rubber mounts. They are a different shape and I normally glue them on prior to assembling the fan.
> Miles

[Kurt]

WOW   I guess like most mods, it's not for everyone and not even a thought for the stock rebuilds, but for the few and far between out there that are looking for cool mods I found this is a very good one for many reasons
1.   It is a quick way to open a spot for a aftermarket alternator.
2. The pulley is there and ready to go for another use.
3. You do have to go through a lot of expense to have an additional pulley pressed on. Now you can add all kinds of cool new toys.
4. It's just a cool mod and the fans come in a bunch of different colors.
5.  It's a do it yourself project, and you don't have to remove the engine to install it.
I haven't had a heat problem, I don't have a baseline to do a test from but I think it stays as cool as stock.  I don't drive mine but once a week and it's only around town so I guess you would have to weight your options on how your going to be driving yours before you make your decision.
 Kurt

On Sep 5, 2014, at 11:03 PM, "
goinhm@...
[2cylinderhondas]" wrote:
I am not seeing the advantage to using an electric fan.  I can see it creating problems for your car.
1.  The stock fan moves a lot of air and it is variable speed.
The electric fans being suggested are not moving enough air.
2.   The stock fan has a specially designed cooling shroud which is pulling air across a large number of fins in the cylinder barrels.  What are you using for the electric fan?
3.  While the electric fan may do a good job when you are stopped or moving slowly,  how well is it working when you are travelling at 60 mph?  And is it allowing the air to properly move across the fins or is it impeding the air flow?
4.  The stock plastic fan and belt assembly is such a small mass that it requires very little power to operate.  The fan belts don't wear out due to use as much as they come apart due to aging.
5.  I don't think the electric fan gives you a horsepower gain unless it is not operating.  The stock system is a mechanical transfer to a low mass system.  The electric fan is running off of electricity which must be supplied by the engine's electrical system.  So,  you have a mechanical system driving an electrical generating system to operate an electric fan which is driving a mechanical fan.  How can that be more efficient than a direct mechanical connection? If both fans (the stock system and the electric fan) are moving the same air volume,  the stock system must be more efficient.
And for the person who says "my dragster uses an
electric fan because I want more horsepower to the wheels".  We are not talking the same thing.  Your dragster has a battery on board which is not being charged by the engine and you are using the battery to run the electric fan.  And the fan is only needed during staging and not when you are running the 1/4 mile.
6.   These cars are air-cooled and the role of the fan is very important.  When you have the hood down and the car is travelling fast,  you need a good system to keep the air flowing out of the engine compartment.  The stock system does this job very well.
As you might guess,  I'll be sticking with the stock cooling system since it hasn't been a problem for me.
Dale
> Jeez, why didn't we all think of this?  Gain slight
> horsepower, no belt maintenance or replacement, faster delivery of engine heat > to the cabin...
> Good on ya'!
> On Thursday, September 4, 2014 10:09 AM,
> "Dr. Whiting
> theenginebuilder@...
> [2cylinderhondas]"
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > wrote:
> > From a practical sense, studs would make the removal of the fan housing > > more difficult. Not much clearance to start with and there is no improvement > > in strength.

[Don B Laughton]

To help the ends of the rubber "washers" and cushions maintain their shape despite heat, oil and vibration.
Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 6, 2014, at 9:24 PM, "Bryan O'Shaughnessy
bryanoshaughnessy@...
[2cylinderhondas]" wrote:
Miles, what was the purpose of the special cupped washers? Vibration suppression, I would suppose?  ---Bryan O
On Saturday, September 6, 2014 1:28 PM, "
z600miles@...
[2cylinderhondas]" wrote:
> My first electric fan design incorporated the original shroud. The GL1000 blades had to be shortened by 1/4" and I ran it on various cars I drove for 20 years, the same fan and today is still out there somewhere either on Truckster or Dinky living in Savannah GA.
> I've rebuilt about 400 engines since 1979 when I first started and the most frequently broken bolt on a Honda 600 is the fan shroud bolt. I was constantly taking them to Puccio Welding in San Jose and he would TIG weld on a post and unscrew them. The factory bolts were hardened steel, hard to drill and EZ Out.
> I have nothing against the stock set up as long as all 4 bolts can secure with correct mounting hardware and a lot of people don't even realize there was special cupped washers on the inside as well - under the rubber mounts. They are a different shape and I normally glue them on prior to assembling the fan.
> Miles