blown reverse gear

[Tom Rapini]

Severe grinding, sounds like only half the teeth are left on one of the reverse gears, all forward gears are fine.
The shop manual says that the reverse gears can be inspected by removing the right crankcase cover.  It says the transmission must be disassembled to replace the reverse gear on the COUNTERSHAFT... but if the bad gear is just the little idler gear, does anyone know if  THAT GEAR can be replaced without full disassembly?
Anyone know which gear is most likely to have failed?
Anyone have gears/forks available for sale when I find out what I need?
Haven't looked at it yet, it was +7 degrees F here last night and I don't have a heated garage.  This car is driven every day, so I'd like to line up parts before I put on the gloves and tear it down.
Glad this little thing pushes easy !!!
Thanks,
Tom

[Love]

Ok, Searching the group messages, I find my old post #6524:
You're in luck, the reverse gear can be accessed without pulling the engine.
Next to the starter is a cover with the speedo cable, dipstick and two wires
(reverse switch). This can be unbolted with great care, and a skinny 10mm
wrench. Have a replacement gasket ready before disassembly. Chances are the
reverse fork retaining washer (H/C 51174) has broken, but the gear itself can be
trashed (H/C 50285) or the retaining circlip (H/C 25179).
What's all the H/C gibbrish? Look at the parts book page 1-20. Document is
available on line here:
www.honda600coupe.com Many questions have prior info, but you have to look.  Go to the group, select messages and search.
Bruce D.
Santa Clara, CA From:
Tom Rapini To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com Sent:
Sat, January 30, 2010 8:09:02 AM Subject:
[2cylinderhondas] blown reverse gear
Severe grinding, sounds like only half the teeth are left on one of the reverse gears, all forward gears are fine.
The shop manual says that the reverse gears can be inspected by removing the right crankcase cover.  It says the transmission must be disassembled to replace the reverse gear on the COUNTERSHAFT. .. but if the bad gear is just the little idler gear, does anyone know if  THAT GEAR can be replaced without full disassembly?
Anyone know which gear is most likely to have failed?
Anyone have gears/forks available for sale when I find out what I need?
Haven't looked at it yet, it was +7 degrees F here last night and I don't have a heated garage.  This car is driven every day, so I'd like to line up parts before I put on the gloves and tear it down.
Glad this little thing pushes easy !!!
Thanks,
Tom

[Tom Rapini]

Thanks Dale, Bram and Bruce,
This is good news, hopefully I can fix all just by removing the cover.  Dale, this IS my electric car, so I don't have to worry about the gaskets since it doesn't see any heat or get much vibration... I just use perm-a-gasket and it keeps the oil in fine!  Also, no tight squeeze there for me because there's no alternator anymore!
Bruce, I have to admit, I've done all my work to date via the shop manual, didn't even know there was a parts manual available on line.  Thanks for enlightening me.
Tom

> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> GoinHm@...
> To:
> tom@...
> Sent:
> Saturday, January 30, 2010 3:36
> PM
> Subject:
> Re: [2cylinderhondas] blown
> reverse gear
> Hi Tom,
>     The gear on the fork inside the reverse cover is the
> most likely culprit.  In my experience,  it seems to wear out > quicker than the other two which it interfaces with.  You can get to that > gear and replace it by removing the reverse cover.  It is still going to > be a tight squeeze to get at the bolts in this area.  The one problem you > may encounter is when you try to remove one of the bolts which is shadowed by > the alternator/rotor casing.  If the last person to work on this car used > the wrong size bolt,  you may not be able to remove this bolt (and the > reverse cover) without first removing the covers on the alternator > section.  I suppose you could cut or saw off the bolt and then remove the > rest of it with pliers but you will not have much space to work.
>     I can help you out if you need any parts for this
> area.  I don't really have any extra gaskets, though.  I need all > the gaskets I already have.  Try to save the old gasket.  Use a > single edge razor blade, if necessary,  to free up the gasket.  If > you do damage the gasket, you can make a new one out of stock gasket material > since this area has lots of space if you make the gasket too wide without > interfering with things.
>     When you look at the reverse gear,  a bad one
> will have very rounded teeth and it may even be chewed or show cracking > on the edges.
> good luck,
> Dale
> PS   Do you still have your electric car?
> > Anyone know which gear is most likely to
> > have failed?
> > Anyone have gears/forks available for sale when
> > I find out what I need?
> > Haven't looked at it yet, it was +7
> > degrees F here last night and I don't have a heated garage.  This car > > is driven every day, so I'd like to line up parts before I put on the gloves > > and tear it down.
> > Glad this little thing pushes easy
> > !!!

[zinc2u]

Hi Tom,
    Just a reminder,  when you pull the reverse cover,  any oil in the crankcase will drain out if it has not been previously drained at the oil plug.  Since this Honda n600 has been converted to electric and has the internal combustion engine (and its components) removed,  I have a couple of questions for you;
1)  how do you keep the bearings in the transmission lubricated?
2)  what are you using for a lubricant?  Is it oil?  What grade?
hope you have the car operational soon,
Dale

> This is good news, hopefully I can fix all just by removing the > cover.  Dale, this IS my electric car, so I don't have to worry about the > gaskets since it doesn't see any heat or get much vibration... I just use > perm-a-gasket and it keeps the oil in fine!  Also, no tight squeeze there > for me because there's no > alternator anymore!

[Tom Rapini]

I have the crankcase filled to the dipstick level with 5W-40 synthetic oil, so thanks for the reminder, I will drain it.  I've only changed it once in 10 years and it came out looking pretty much like it did going in.  I just assume it is getting to the transmission bearings as it would if it were a whole engine, even though the oil pump is out... is that an incorrect assumption?
Tom

> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> goinhm@...
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Sunday, January 31, 2010 3:03
> AM
> Subject:
> Re: [2cylinderhondas] blown
> reverse gear
> Hi Tom,
>     Just a reminder,  when you pull the reverse
> cover,  any oil in the crankcase will drain out if it has not been > previously drained at the oil plug.  Since this Honda n600 has been > converted to electric and has the internal combustion engine (and its > components) removed,  I have a couple of questions for you;
> 1)  how do you keep the bearings in the transmission
> lubricated?
> 2)  what are you using for a lubricant?  Is it oil?  What
> grade?
> hope you have the car operational soon,
> Dale
> > This is good news, hopefully I can fix all just by removing the > > cover.  Dale, this IS my electric car, so I don't have to worry about > > the gaskets since it doesn't see any heat or get much vibration... I just > > use perm-a-gasket and it keeps the oil in fine!  Also, no tight squeeze > > there for me because there's no > > alternator anymore!

[dealadayray]

Hi Tom;
            Because your electric motor has so much torque any miss alignment of the reverse gear and the fork can cause it to be bent.  I would remove it, look at it with another fork (coupe and sedan are the same as is the early and late sedan reverse forks)  just to see if it is bent.   I have hammered on them a bit to put them straight again.  Just look for cracks.
            As to lubrication, the transmissions were only splash, but I would change the oil more often as there is no filtering without the oil pump.
Bill

[zinc2u]

Hi Tom,
    The gears and bearings appear to be getting lubrication okay but what about the primary drive and the primary drive chains?
Are you using them in your electric car with the Honda 600 clutch?  The primary drive and drive chains were lubricated from the oil pump (which is now removed in your car).
    Since you don't have a combustion engine running with all of its combustion by-products and heat, the transmission oil doesn't need to be changed very often.  When I look at the factory specs for the 1974 Civic transmission,  it mentions 24,000 miles between transmission oil changes.  We all know of people who have never changed the oil in their manual transmission and differential and have never had a problem.
The gears are wearing and the synchros are also depositing small amounts of metal into the oil every time you shift gears.  How long the detergent in your motor oil can hold these particulates in colloidal suspension is something which the oil companies and auto companies do not typically share with us.
That the used oil looks like the new oil is a good sign but without any analysis of the oil, you don't know what you have.  As Bill mentioned in an earlier message,  it is probably a good idea to change the transmission oil more frequently.  As a guess,  I would go with the 24,000 miles or 5 years (whichever comes first).  If I really wanted to know,  I would run an oil analysis on the old oil to see how much metal is in the oil.  If you ever decide to run an oil analysis,  persons who maintain aircraft (small and large) can give you some names of places in your area where they have the testing performed.  In the 1980s,   I used to be able to get my oil tested for about $20 by Spicer SpectroChemical Labs in Reno, NV (but they seem to be out of business or have changed their name).   But hey,  why bother.   For the price and hassle of a test,  you can buy fresh oil.  Sorry for the rambling...... gotta go.
good luck getting the car to backwards again,
Dale

> I have the crankcase filled to the dipstick level with 5W-40 synthetic > oil, so thanks for the reminder, I will drain it.  I've only changed it > once in 10 years and it came out looking pretty much like it did going > in.  I just assume it is getting to the transmission bearings as it would > if it were a whole engine, even though the oil pump is out... is that an > incorrect assumption?
> Tom

[Tom Rapini]

Bill, Dale,
Thanks for the advice on oil and transmission forks.  The drive chain is out, I'm driving the electric motor directly into the transmission input shaft, so no lubrication issue there.  Also, being electric, the car has limited range and is only driven around town, accumulating only about 3,000 miles per year.  I will take your advice on changing oil more often though, since I do clutchless gear shifting which results in occasional grinding plus probably more wear on the synchros.  And for now I'm sure there are shreds of reverse gear metal everywhere !
Tom

> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> goinhm@...
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Monday, February 01, 2010 4:12
> PM
> Subject:
> Re: [2cylinderhondas] blown
> reverse gear
> Hi Tom,
>     The gears and bearings appear to be getting
> lubrication okay but what about the primary drive and the primary drive > chains?   Are you using them in your electric car with the Honda 600 > clutch?  The primary drive and drive chains were lubricated from the oil > pump (which is now removed in your car).
>     Since you don't have a combustion engine running with
> all of its combustion by-products and heat, the transmission oil doesn't need > to be changed very often.  When I look at the factory specs for the 1974 > Civic transmission,  it mentions 24,000 miles between transmission oil > changes.  We all know of people who have never changed the oil in their > manual transmission and differential and have never had a problem.
> The gears are wearing and the synchros are also depositing small amounts of > metal into the oil every time you shift gears.  How long the detergent in > your motor oil can hold these particulates in colloidal suspension is > something which the oil companies and auto companies do not typically share > with us.  That the used oil looks like the new oil is a good sign but > without any analysis of the oil, you don't know what you have.  As Bill > mentioned in an earlier message,  it is probably a good idea to > change the transmission oil more frequently.  As a guess,  I > would go with the 24,000 miles or 5 years (whichever comes first).  If I > really wanted to know,  I would run an oil analysis on the old oil to see > how much metal is in the oil.  If you ever decide to run an oil > analysis,  persons who maintain aircraft (small and large) can give you > some names of places in your area where they have the testing performed.
> In the 1980s,   I used to be able to get my oil tested for about $20 > by Spicer SpectroChemical Labs in Reno, NV (but they seem to be out of > business or have changed their name).   But hey,  why > bother.   For the price and hassle of a test,  you can buy > fresh oil.  Sorry for the rambling...... gotta go.
> good luck getting the car to backwards again,
> Dale
> > I have the crankcase filled to the dipstick level with 5W-40 synthetic > > oil, so thanks for the reminder, I will drain it.  I've only changed it > > once in 10 years and it came out looking pretty much like it did going > > in.  I just assume it is getting to the transmission bearings as it > > would if it were a whole engine, even though the oil pump is out... is that > > an incorrect assumption?
> > Tom