Oil filter bypass check valve!

[lyletrudell]

Dale thanks for looking into this!!!!
Wow, this is very important.
We had the same problems on our Opel-GT 1900 engines.
The bypass ball and seat was worn and pitted from bouncing open and closed for years. Also the spring was weak and could not hold the ball on it's seat.
This was letting the oil bypass the filter, we were getting no filtering or very little!
We need to look at this.
*The oil filter never plugs up, unless you totally neglect your car.
*We need to see what this check valve pops at.
*Maybe use a strong spring, so we don't bypass the filter?
*Do we even need a bypass with a piston oil pump and open roller bearing?
The bypass makes sure pressure doesn't build up so high that it damages something, we don't have this problem.
?
Lyle
Dale wrote:
"I was looking at an engine and the oil flow path described on pp 4-6 and 4-7 of the sedan shop manual is correct. What is a little misleading is how the oil flows through the filter. The text implies all the oil from the pump goes through the filter element and up the center bolt unless the filter is plugged. I don't believe this is correct. I believe the filter operates in bypass mode. Looking at the system, though, it does appear that all the oil must flow through the filter before finding its way to the center bolt and the rest of the engine. When I checked the spring tension on the check valve, it appears to be very weak (the force to open the check valve would be measured in ounces and not pounds ......so, less than a pound is needed to open the check valve).
In normal operation, I believe the check valve is always open slightly which allows some oil to pass through the filter element and the remainder is bypassed directly to the engine components. If the filter becomes clogged, all the oil would flow past the open check valve and up the center bolt. The inside diameter of the center bolt is 1/2 inch which makes it look like a 1/2 inch pipe. If you go with a remote oil filter system, you would want to choose a hose which flows oil better than a 1/2 inch steel pipe.
After looking at the oiling system, I can see several things related to the oiling system which are important when rebuilding the engine. They are;
1) the check valve in the oil filter center bolt needs to be clean and operational. If you have a center bolt which is dirty or rusty, the check valve may not work properly.
2) the oil nozzle over the primary drive should be in good shape and not have its nozzles enlarged. Doing so may lessen the flow of oil going to the main bearing on the clutch side of the crank.
3) the oil bridge (that tube which goes from the oil filter housing over to the primary drive) needs to be a snug fit and clean. Don't let any gasket sealer or debris clog this area.
4) those rubber washers and o-ring, metal washer, and spring which are around the oil filter serve a very important purpose and must be in place."
Dale

[brad fenn]

Hey Lyle, I have to second that on the Opels.  I have a Orange 70 Opel Gt that I have been driving for 20 years,and it's pressure relief spring I had changed to a stiffer spring and new relief valve and pump cover. But on my Opel it helped,but still never had much for oil pressure. So I just said to heck with it, Drive it till it blows. It now has 370k miles on the engine and still going. But I am finally getting timing chain noise out of it,so I think it's finally about done. And as all my cars,I run the crap out of them, but maintain them. Have changed the oil in the Opel about every 1K miles.So I think this says something about changing oil frequently. Also I usually run 50w Valvoline racing oil,it always brought the pressure up some.
From:
lyletrudell To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com Sent:
Thu, July 22, 2010 10:26:38 AM Subject:
[anzhonda600owners] Oil filter bypass check valve!
Dale thanks for looking into this!!!!
Wow, this is very important.
We had the same problems on our Opel-GT 1900 engines.
The bypass ball and seat was worn and pitted from bouncing open and closed for years. Also the spring was weak and could not hold the ball on it's seat.
This was letting the oil bypass the filter, we were getting no filtering or very little!
We need to look at this.
*The oil filter never plugs up, unless you totally neglect your car.
*We need to see what this check valve pops at.
*Maybe use a strong spring, so we don't bypass the filter?
*Do we even need a bypass with a piston oil pump and open roller bearing?
The bypass makes sure pressure doesn't build up so high that it damages something, we don't have this problem.
?
Lyle
Dale wrote:
"I was looking at an engine and the oil flow path described on pp 4-6 and 4-7 of the sedan shop manual is correct. What is a little misleading is how the oil flows through the filter. The text implies all the oil from the pump goes through the filter element and up the center bolt unless the filter is plugged. I don't believe this is correct. I believe the filter operates in bypass mode. Looking at the system, though, it does appear that all the oil must flow through the filter before finding its way to the center bolt and the rest of the engine. When I checked the spring tension on the check valve, it appears to be very weak (the force to open the check valve would be measured in ounces and not pounds ......so, less than a pound is needed to open the check valve).
In normal operation, I believe the check valve is always open slightly which allows some oil to pass through the filter element and the remainder is bypassed directly to the engine components. If the filter becomes clogged, all the oil would flow past the open check valve and up the center bolt. The inside diameter of the center bolt is 1/2 inch which makes it look like a 1/2 inch pipe. If you go with a remote oil filter system, you would want to choose a hose which flows oil better than a 1/2 inch steel pipe.
After looking at the oiling system, I can see several things related to the oiling system which are important when rebuilding the engine. They are;
1) the check valve in the oil filter center bolt needs to be clean and operational. If you have a center bolt which is dirty or rusty, the check valve may not work properly.
2) the oil nozzle over the primary drive should be in good shape and not have its nozzles enlarged. Doing so may lessen the flow of oil going to the main bearing on the clutch side of the crank.
3) the oil bridge (that tube which goes from the oil filter housing over to the primary drive) needs to be a snug fit and clean. Don't let any gasket sealer or debris clog this area.
4) those rubber washers and o-ring, metal washer, and spring which are around the oil filter serve a very important purpose and must be in place."
Dale

[zinc2u]

Hi Lyle,
    I don't know what the spring force on the check valve is and the years of engine heat on the spring may have changed its value.  The oil does need to readily bypass the filter, though.  The oil pump delivers a good volume of oil and I cannot see the little paper filter being able to handle the volume needed by the engine....hence the bypass system.
The camshaft area needs the large volume of oil for cooling and lubricating.
Dale

> We
> need to look at this.
> *The oil filter never plugs up, unless you totally
> neglect your car.
> *We need to see what this check valve pops at.
> *Maybe
> use a strong spring, so we don't bypass the filter?
> *Do we even need a
> bypass with a piston oil pump and open roller bearing?
> The bypass makes
> sure pressure doesn't build up so high that it damages something, we don't > have this problem.
> ?
> Lyle

[lyletrudell]

Hi Brad, we like unusual cars, 370K miles!
I have had my 1970 GT since I was 19, 50 now!
The Opel GT has it's share of problems, but we have a great site run by Gary, that you can find stuff or get help.
I am sure your already a member.
Your engine just needs to be rebuilt, then it will be good for another 370K.
http://www.opelgt.com/
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, brad fenn wrote:
> Hey Lyle, I have to second that on the Opels. I have a Orange 70 Opel Gt that I
> have been driving for 20 years,and it's pressure relief spring I had changed to
> a stiffer spring and new relief valve and pump cover. But on my Opel it
> helped,but still never had much for oil pressure. So I just said to heck with
> it, Drive it till it blows. It now has 370k miles on the engine and still going.
> But I am finally getting timing chain noise out of it,so I think it's finally
> about done. And as all my cars,I run the crap out of them, but maintain them.
> Have changed the oil in the Opel about every 1K miles.So I think this says
> something about changing oil frequently. Also I usually run 50w Valvoline racing
> oil,it always brought the pressure up some.
> From: lyletrudell
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 10:26:38 AM
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Oil filter bypass check valve!
> Dale thanks for looking into this!!!!
> Wow, this is very important.
> We had the same problems on our Opel-GT 1900 engines.
> The bypass ball and seat was worn and pitted from bouncing open and closed for
> years. Also the spring was weak and could not hold the ball on it's seat.
> This was letting the oil bypass the filter, we were getting no filtering or very
> little!
> We need to look at this.
> *The oil filter never plugs up, unless you totally neglect your car.
> *We need to see what this check valve pops at.
> *Maybe use a strong spring, so we don't bypass the filter?
> *Do we even need a bypass with a piston oil pump and open roller bearing?
> The bypass makes sure pressure doesn't build up so high that it damages
> something, we don't have this problem.
> ?
> Lyle
> Dale wrote:
> "I was looking at an engine and the oil flow path described on pp 4-6 and 4-7 of
> the sedan shop manual is correct. What is a little misleading is how the oil
> flows through the filter. The text implies all the oil from the pump goes
> through the filter element and up the center bolt unless the filter is plugged.
> I don't believe this is correct. I believe the filter operates in bypass mode.
> Looking at the system, though, it does appear that all the oil must flow through
> the filter before finding its way to the center bolt and the rest of the engine.
> When I checked the spring tension on the check valve, it appears to be very
> weak (the force to open the check valve would be measured in ounces and not
> pounds ......so, less than a pound is needed to open the check valve).
> In normal operation, I believe the check valve is always open slightly which
> allows some oil to pass through the filter element and the remainder is bypassed
> directly to the engine components. If the filter becomes clogged, all the oil
> would flow past the open check valve and up the center bolt. The inside
> diameter of the center bolt is 1/2 inch which makes it look like a 1/2 inch
> pipe. If you go with a remote oil filter system, you would want to choose a
> hose which flows oil better than a 1/2 inch steel pipe.
> After looking at the oiling system, I can see several things related to the
> oiling system which are important when rebuilding the engine. They are;
> 1) the check valve in the oil filter center bolt needs to be clean and
> operational. If you have a center bolt which is dirty or rusty, the check
> valve may not work properly.
> 2) the oil nozzle over the primary drive should be in good shape and not have
> its nozzles enlarged. Doing so may lessen the flow of oil going to the main
> bearing on the clutch side of the crank.
> 3) the oil bridge (that tube which goes from the oil filter housing over to the
> primary drive) needs to be a snug fit and clean. Don't let any gasket sealer or
> debris clog this area.
> 4) those rubber washers and o-ring, metal washer, and spring which are around
> the oil filter serve a very important purpose and must be in place."
> Dale

[lyletrudell]

Good topic, since oil is the only thing that cools and lubricates the internal parts.
What kind of oil pressure do these Honda piston pumps put out?
Maybe 40PSI?
Most cars have gear pumps that can put out 100PSI or more.
Correct me if I am wrong, not an expert in oil systems.
On most cars the flow goes like this:
Oil is picked up from the pan and goes to the oil pump.
Then "All" the oil goes through the oil filter!
Then a check valve bypass after the oil filter is used to releive excess pressure.
Their is also another bypass in case the oil filter plugs.
No oil should ever bypass the filter, unless the filter is plugged!
With open roller bearings, it seems like that would limit how much pressure the oil passages will get....?
I guess we need to see what pressure the check valve pops at.
Air hose and a regulator would work.
Maybe set it at 45PSI?
I am sure the filter can handle the flow, but if it can't we need a bigger/better filter.
We need all of the oil being filtered.
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, goinhm@... wrote:
> Hi Lyle,
> I don't know what the spring force on the check valve is and the years
> of engine heat on the spring may have changed its value. The oil does
> need to readily bypass the filter, though. The oil pump delivers a good
> volume of oil and I cannot see the little paper filter being able to handle the
> volume needed by the engine....hence the bypass system. The camshaft area
> needs the large volume of oil for cooling and lubricating.
> Dale
> We need to look at this.
> *The oil filter never plugs up, unless you totally neglect your car.
> *We need to see what this check valve pops at.
> *Maybe use a strong spring, so we don't bypass the filter?
> *Do we even need a bypass with a piston oil pump and open roller bearing?
> The bypass makes sure pressure doesn't build up so high that it damages
> something, we don't have this problem.
> ?
> Lyle

[zinc2u]

Hi Lyle,
    The oil system you have described is a full flow system which is what, I believe, most cars are using today.  I mentioned in an earlier msg that I thought the Honda 600 was using a bypass system where some of the oil is pumped through the filter and most is sent directly to the engine.  I am beginning to think the Honda 600 is supposed to be a full flow system (the one you described).  Looking at the shop manual on pg 4-2,  it mentions the oil pump delivery rate is 3.3 quarts/min at 2800 rpm.  This is less than 2 ounces of oil per second passing through the filter and that may be a reasonable amount of oil to expect those little filters to pass.   The one check valve on the oil filter center bolt which I looked at did seem pretty weak which made me suspect the car was using a modified version of the bypass system.
    Now that has me thinking about oil filters ..... over the years I have used the Honda brand  and brand X oil filters.  They all looked alike (paper elements) but I am wondering if the filtering level was the same on the two filters.  If brand X was filtering to 10 microns and the Honda filter was filtering to 50 microns,  my brand X filters would be getting plugged more readily and then operating in bypass mode which ceases the filtering action.  Someone might ask "isn't it better to filter to 10 microns rather than 50 microns?"  It might not be necessary on these engines since the roller bearing design is more forgiving than the sleeve bearings design found in other engines.   But I don't know what filtering level Honda was using in their oil filters and if there was a difference between my different brands of filters.  I am beginning to like the idea of the remote filter..... a free flow filter with a large surface area and I can buy different brands which each market their varying levels of filtering (I was looking at the Fram oil filter selection which offers its various guard levels).
thanks for your comments,
Dale

> Good
> topic, since oil is the only thing that cools and lubricates the internal > parts.
> What kind of oil pressure do these Honda piston pumps put
> out?
> Maybe 40PSI?
> Most cars have gear pumps that can put out 100PSI or
> more.
> Correct me if I am wrong, not an expert in oil systems.
> On
> most cars the flow goes like this:
> Oil is picked up from the pan and goes
> to the oil pump.
> Then "All" the oil goes through the oil filter!
> Then a
> check valve bypass after the oil filter is used to releive excess > pressure.
> Their is also another bypass in case the oil filter plugs.
> No
> oil should ever bypass the filter, unless the filter is plugged!
> With
> open roller bearings, it seems like that would limit how much pressure the oil > passages will get....?
> I guess we need to see what pressure the check valve
> pops at.
> Air hose and a regulator would work.
> Maybe set it at
> 45PSI?
> I am sure the filter can handle the flow, but if it can't we need a > bigger/better filter.
> We need all of the oil being
> filtered.
> Lyle

[misterpoopoohead]

3.3 quarts per minute would mean the entire reservoir of oil is pumped through the engine once every minute!
Kev Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From:
goinhm@...
Sender:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Date:
Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:54:53 EDT
To:

ReplyTo:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Oil filter bypass check valve!
Hi Lyle,
    The oil system you have described is a full flow system which is what, I believe, most cars are using today.  I mentioned in an earlier msg that I thought the Honda 600 was using a bypass system where some of the oil is pumped through the filter and most is sent directly to the engine.  I am beginning to think the Honda 600 is supposed to be a full flow system (the one you described).  Looking at the shop manual on pg 4-2,  it mentions the oil pump delivery rate is 3.3 quarts/min at 2800 rpm.  This is less than 2 ounces of oil per second passing through the filter and that may be a reasonable amount of oil to expect those little filters to pass.   The one check valve on the oil filter center bolt which I looked at did seem pretty weak which made me suspect the car was using a modified version of the bypass system.
    Now that has me thinking about oil filters ..... over the years I have used the Honda brand  and brand X oil filters.  They all looked alike (paper elements) but I am wondering if the filtering level was the same on the two filters.  If brand X was filtering to 10 microns and the Honda filter was filtering to 50 microns,  my brand X filters would be getting plugged more readily and then operating in bypass mode which ceases the filtering action.  Someone might ask "isn't it better to filter to 10 microns rather than 50 microns?"  It might not be necessary on these engines since the roller bearing design is more forgiving than the sleeve bearings design found in other engines.   But I don't know what filtering level Honda was using in their oil filters and if there was a difference between my different brands of filters.  I am beginning to like the idea of the remote filter..... a free flow filter with a large surface area and I can buy different brands which each market their varying levels of filtering (I was looking at the Fram oil filter selection which offers its various guard levels).
thanks for your comments,
Dale

> Good
> topic, since oil is the only thing that cools and lubricates the internal > parts.
> What kind of oil pressure do these Honda piston pumps put
> out?
> Maybe 40PSI?
> Most cars have gear pumps that can put out 100PSI or
> more.
> Correct me if I am wrong, not an expert in oil systems.
> On
> most cars the flow goes like this:
> Oil is picked up from the pan and goes
> to the oil pump.
> Then "All" the oil goes through the oil filter!
> Then a
> check valve bypass after the oil filter is used to releive excess > pressure.
> Their is also another bypass in case the oil filter plugs.
> No
> oil should ever bypass the filter, unless the filter is plugged!
> With
> open roller bearings, it seems like that would limit how much pressure the oil > passages will get....?
> I guess we need to see what pressure the check valve
> pops at.
> Air hose and a regulator would work.
> Maybe set it at
> 45PSI?
> I am sure the filter can handle the flow, but if it can't we need a > bigger/better filter.
> We need all of the oil being
> filtered.
> Lyle

[lyletrudell]

Dale, 3 quarts in a minute doesn't sound like much oil pressure.
I think Bill's remote oil filter and cooler is the best thing we could do for these engines, I will use one.
I don't have the filter off, so I don't know what the ball check valve pops at.
Bill posted an oil pressure reading somewhere?
I think it should pop at 5-10 lbs above the high RPM oil pressure.
Thanks for the imput.
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, goinhm@... wrote:
> Hi Lyle,
> The oil system you have described is a full flow system which is what,
> I believe, most cars are using today. I mentioned in an earlier msg that
> I thought the Honda 600 was using a bypass system where some of the oil is
> pumped through the filter and most is sent directly to the engine. I am
> beginning to think the Honda 600 is supposed to be a full flow system (the
> one you described). Looking at the shop manual on pg 4-2, it mentions the
> oil pump delivery rate is 3.3 quarts/min at 2800 rpm. This is less than 2
> ounces of oil per second passing through the filter and that may be a
> reasonable amount of oil to expect those little filters to pass. The one check
> valve on the oil filter center bolt which I looked at did seem pretty weak
> which made me suspect the car was using a modified version of the bypass
> system.
> Now that has me thinking about oil filters ..... over the years I have
> used the Honda brand and brand X oil filters. They all looked alike
> (paper elements) but I am wondering if the filtering level was the same on the
> two filters. If brand X was filtering to 10 microns and the Honda filter
> was filtering to 50 microns, my brand X filters would be getting plugged
> more readily and then operating in bypass mode which ceases the filtering
> action. Someone might ask "isn't it better to filter to 10 microns rather
> than 50 microns?" It might not be necessary on these engines since the roller
> bearing design is more forgiving than the sleeve bearings design found in
> other engines. But I don't know what filtering level Honda was using in
> their oil filters and if there was a difference between my different brands
> of filters. I am beginning to like the idea of the remote filter..... a
> free flow filter with a large surface area and I can buy different brands
> which each market their varying levels of filtering (I was looking at the Fram
> oil filter selection which offers its various guard levels).
> thanks for your comments,
> Dale
> Good topic, since oil is the only thing that cools and lubricates the
> internal parts.
> What kind of oil pressure do these Honda piston pumps put out?
> Maybe 40PSI?
> Most cars have gear pumps that can put out 100PSI or more.
> Correct me if I am wrong, not an expert in oil systems.
> On most cars the flow goes like this:
> Oil is picked up from the pan and goes to the oil pump.
> Then "All" the oil goes through the oil filter!
> Then a check valve bypass after the oil filter is used to releive excess
> pressure.
> Their is also another bypass in case the oil filter plugs.
> No oil should ever bypass the filter, unless the filter is plugged!
> With open roller bearings, it seems like that would limit how much
> pressure the oil passages will get....?
> I guess we need to see what pressure the check valve pops at.
> Air hose and a regulator would work.
> Maybe set it at 45PSI?
> I am sure the filter can handle the flow, but if it can't we need a
> bigger/better filter.
> We need all of the oil being filtered.
> Lyle

[zinc2u]

Hi Kev,
    Yes,  it shows how important it is to keep the oil level up on these cars.  And the 3.3 qts/min is at 2800 rpm ..... higher rpms mean higher flow rates.   When you add oil to your car,  it doesn't take more than a second it for it to get to the bottom. If you have ever left the valve cover off and started the engine,  you see a huge spray of oil which covers the underside of the hood even if it is propped up.
Dale
3.3 quarts per minute would mean the entire reservoir of oil is pumped through the engine once >every minute!

>Kev

[brad fenn]

I was driving back to Texas from Florida  in a 72 Coupe and running WOT as I always do. When I started getting oil spots on my windshield,and wasn't really thinking much of it as I was used to driving rear engine cars, then i came to me that I wasn't behind anybody. ( I was tired) I pulled over immediately. When I went to the front of the car,there was oil running out of my grill and all over the front of the car.I opened the hood to find the 2 bolts on the front of the valve cover gone,the front of the cover was popped open and the timing chain was just slinging it straight out the front. I robbed the bolts out of the battery cables to secure it to keep going, and had lost about 2.5 quarts of oil. I think the only thing that saved it was at the speed I was running ,the wind was blowing some of the oil back in the engine.
From:
"goinhm@..." To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com Sent:
Fri, July 23, 2010 6:08:25 PM Subject:
Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Oil filter bypass check valve!
Hi Kev,
    Yes,  it shows how important it is to keep the oil level up on these cars.  And the 3.3 qts /min is at 2800 rpm ..... higher rpms mean higher flow rates.   When you add oil to your car,  it doesn't take more than a second it for it to get to the bottom. If you have ever left the valve cover off and started the engine,  you see a huge spray of oil which covers the underside of the hood even if it is propped up.
Dale
3.3 quarts per minute would mean the entire reservoir of oil is pumped through the engine once >every minute!

>Kev