To: Twincarb600
I made a couple of Coupes converting their engines into 45hp units.
Can we first go back to the parts manual for a minute? Honda of America
parts manual has some short comings besides switching the rear brake
cylinder numbers so you ordered the right when you needed the left rear
wheel cylinder.
They goofed up the part numbers for the Carb's listed for the Hawaiian cars.
Hawaiian car production ran from engine number Initial to 1018285, but the
carb listing in the Honda America parts manual only goes to engine number
1017730, what? the rest were detuned? not likely.
However a 1970 parts manual from England tells a different story, Carb
number 16100-568-064 (superseded by 16100-568-074) was for all Honda 600
standard sedans engine numbers initial to 1018981, which includes the
Hawaiian cars and the same carb with some added linkage was used on the 600
automatic however it's part number is 16100-580-040. All early (the first
700) Hondamatics had 45hp configuration. Miles said it earlier in another
e-mail to the group, "the compression was the same". The only change was in
the breathing of the engine. Intake, exhaust and valve operation.
Using this knowledge...
The cam is no big deal. The Sedan shop manual gives the specs needed for
the larger Cam, send your stock cam out and have it reground for $80.00 and
have some .015 lash caps made up to make up the difference the cam grinder
removed from the back side of the cam. Adjust your valves and your in.
With the angle port head, a dual exhaust system (I didn't care for the
factory "Y" pipe) and made them using glass packs on each, the larger Carb
(or, rejet the secondary jet in the later carb - caution - leave the primary
jet alone if you want your car to idle) and recut cam using standard pistons
you will achieve 45hp from your engine. Larger pistons, replace the
constant transmission with a full syncro trans, use carbon core plug wires
and a hotter plug and you will probably achieve close to 50 hp.
But here is the kicker, the points fire on both pistons at the same time, at
about 7.5K rpm you exceed point capability, your engine will stall (stop
firing) and pick up where it left off at around 6.5K rpm. But lets say you
modify your point system with an electronic system, you're still facing red
line of 6K and a final gear ratio that will keep you at 75 MPH unless you
exceed 6K RPM. Red Lines are there for a purpose, break the rule and you
may pay with a spent engine.
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to put you down, I have completed a
couple of engines using the items I spoke of above. One is still running
around up in Los Angeles. The other was up for sale here in San Diego a few
months back, both were are still running great according to their owners.
They sounded nice and quiet at idle, but crack em open a notch and they
rapped like a straight pipe motorcycle. But they did move out very well.
I know this is more information than you may have been looking for, but it
is harder to speak to just one item when the whole package is easier to
explain.
Bill
Re: [2cylinderhondas] (unknown)
-
harryL1190
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sun May 26, 2002 1:42 pm
Re: [2cylinderhondas] (unknown)
bill you ARE the well of honda info --- keep up the great work
i'll call you this week about the photo --- what about monday 8/26 after 1700
harry
i'll call you this week about the photo --- what about monday 8/26 after 1700
harry
[2cylinderhondas] (unknown)
�
Reply:
That is pure conjecture, the question is "does paint hold heat". The question was answered. The support desk at any sizable company world have knowledgeable people answering the questions. Their credibility is a t stake unlike some one that seemingly does little more than turn a wrench.
Bill
Reply:
That is pure conjecture, the question is "does paint hold heat". The question was answered. The support desk at any sizable company world have knowledgeable people answering the questions. Their credibility is a t stake unlike some one that seemingly does little more than turn a wrench.
Bill
Re: [2cylinderhondas] (unknown)
�
Yea know, the group is right. This has become a dead horse, no further discussion is necessary as people with common sense will figure it out and do as they please.
Heat does cause parts internal to the engine to wear faster. Warn and abused parts of the engine will fail with time and friction will cause more heat.
Exterior cooling of the engine components is one way but it seems that the unregulated cooling of anything will cause more damage as lubricants and metal have to heat up to do their intended work. There are lots of factors that can cause more heat. An engine out of time, poor performing spark plugs, points, valve adjustment to name a few. However s ince the only two things that will cool an air cooled engine is the Air coming across the fined areas and the oil why not put a oil cooling system on the car.
There is an oil cooling system used on VW air cooled engines for years. Besides having an external spin on filter that is cheaper and more readily available than the Honda oil filter element, the system offers an oil thermostat that will help to regulate the temperature of the oil flowing through the cooling coils. Which will maintain the oil at a more stable temperature and cool the engine. So do parts wear over time, yes there is no stopping wear but it can be reduced and the viscosity retained in the lubricant. Also, by having an external filtering system, components can be added to monitor temperature and oil pressure. With the only parts being modified are the original oil filter cap and center bolt. If you have ever opened the cases of the Honda 600 engine you saw the blackened tar like material on everything. That's what over heated oil does and oil that is being constantly baked loses it's lubricating capability.
Yes, changing the oil, using a better oil and ensuring all the adjustments are correct helps. With the design of the Honda 600 engine where the same oil lubricates the transmission and engine at the same time should allow the oil to cool some before being pumped back up to the cam box and down the through the engine again. It should also be noted that the oil pump circulates all the oil once every minute at idle or 1100 rpms. And 5.5 times that when your cruising down the road at 65mph. There is not a lot of time for the oil to cool off "and" when you drop off the freeway the oil temp will climb to 230 + degrees in the case at the first stop light. The temp of the oil in bearings can run much higher and with only a limited amount of oil to dissipate the heat (about 3 quarts) things tend to heat up.
Beefing up other components in the engine will help. Miles made a steel oil pump rod that is the best insurance to having a bullet proof oil pump. Using that oil pump rod and sleeving the eccentric it runs on to ensure everything is with in spec is the best way to go. I have used oil pumps that were scored and pumps that were new and they both push 0 psi at idle and about 8 to 10 psi at 3K rpms.
Oh the new pump pushed about 30 psi at first but after a few hundred miles it acted just like the old pump. The low psi is due to the 95% roller/ball bearing in the crankshaft, rods and transmission.
I have two Honda 600's one is completely stock (its used mainly for shows), no cooler and after running it 15 miles down the road it is so hot I can't touch the top of the engine. The Honda 600 run the same distance with the oil cooler is warm, but no where near the heat on the one with out the oil cooler.
Just something to think about.
Bill
Yea know, the group is right. This has become a dead horse, no further discussion is necessary as people with common sense will figure it out and do as they please.
Heat does cause parts internal to the engine to wear faster. Warn and abused parts of the engine will fail with time and friction will cause more heat.
Exterior cooling of the engine components is one way but it seems that the unregulated cooling of anything will cause more damage as lubricants and metal have to heat up to do their intended work. There are lots of factors that can cause more heat. An engine out of time, poor performing spark plugs, points, valve adjustment to name a few. However s ince the only two things that will cool an air cooled engine is the Air coming across the fined areas and the oil why not put a oil cooling system on the car.
There is an oil cooling system used on VW air cooled engines for years. Besides having an external spin on filter that is cheaper and more readily available than the Honda oil filter element, the system offers an oil thermostat that will help to regulate the temperature of the oil flowing through the cooling coils. Which will maintain the oil at a more stable temperature and cool the engine. So do parts wear over time, yes there is no stopping wear but it can be reduced and the viscosity retained in the lubricant. Also, by having an external filtering system, components can be added to monitor temperature and oil pressure. With the only parts being modified are the original oil filter cap and center bolt. If you have ever opened the cases of the Honda 600 engine you saw the blackened tar like material on everything. That's what over heated oil does and oil that is being constantly baked loses it's lubricating capability.
Yes, changing the oil, using a better oil and ensuring all the adjustments are correct helps. With the design of the Honda 600 engine where the same oil lubricates the transmission and engine at the same time should allow the oil to cool some before being pumped back up to the cam box and down the through the engine again. It should also be noted that the oil pump circulates all the oil once every minute at idle or 1100 rpms. And 5.5 times that when your cruising down the road at 65mph. There is not a lot of time for the oil to cool off "and" when you drop off the freeway the oil temp will climb to 230 + degrees in the case at the first stop light. The temp of the oil in bearings can run much higher and with only a limited amount of oil to dissipate the heat (about 3 quarts) things tend to heat up.
Beefing up other components in the engine will help. Miles made a steel oil pump rod that is the best insurance to having a bullet proof oil pump. Using that oil pump rod and sleeving the eccentric it runs on to ensure everything is with in spec is the best way to go. I have used oil pumps that were scored and pumps that were new and they both push 0 psi at idle and about 8 to 10 psi at 3K rpms.
Oh the new pump pushed about 30 psi at first but after a few hundred miles it acted just like the old pump. The low psi is due to the 95% roller/ball bearing in the crankshaft, rods and transmission.
I have two Honda 600's one is completely stock (its used mainly for shows), no cooler and after running it 15 miles down the road it is so hot I can't touch the top of the engine. The Honda 600 run the same distance with the oil cooler is warm, but no where near the heat on the one with out the oil cooler.
Just something to think about.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of > theenginebuilder@...
> Sent:
> Saturday, July
> 23, 2011 8:46 AM
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> [2cylinderhondas]
> (unknown)
> The part of the question that Bill has left out when asking is that the > engine is air cooled! When talking to "Help Desks and Salespeople" they > automatically think you are asking about a regular water cooled engine. The > heat transfer has already taken place under the paint in a liquid cooled > engine. In fact the paint has helped the process by forcing some of the heat > to transfer to the coolant instead of the air. The smooth outside surface of a > liquid cooled engine does not transfer as much heat as we would like. You > don't use regular paint on the inside of a water cooled engine because it > stops heat from transferring through the metal to the cooling system.
> Sure people paint air cooled engines. It's for looks and it does > reduce cooling! Remember that "Help Desks and Salespeople" don't own the > engine that's getting the paint. Doesn't matter what happens to it in the > future as far as they are concerned. Heat transfer is rocket science and these > people are not that kind of scientist are they?
> Go ahead and paint your
> engine if you want. Somewhere down the line a professional will be glad for > the engine rebuild job and see the results of lack of > cooling.
> Bruce
-
Harry Lineback
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:07 pm
Re: [2cylinderhondas] (unknown)
well said!!!
On Jul 27, 2011, at 1:05 AM, wrote:
> �
> Yea
> know, the group is right. This has become a dead horse, no further > discussion is necessary as people with common sense will figure it out and do as > they please.
> Heat
> does cause parts internal to the engine to wear faster. Warn and abused > parts of the engine will fail with time and friction will cause more heat.
> Exterior cooling of the engine components is one way but it seems that the > unregulated cooling of anything will cause more damage as lubricants and metal > have to heat up to do their intended work. There are lots of factors > that can cause more heat. An engine out of time, poor performing spark > plugs, points, valve adjustment to name a few. However > s > ince the only two things that will cool an air cooled > engine is the Air coming across the fined areas and the oil why not put a oil > cooling system on the car.
> There
> is an oil cooling system used on VW air cooled engines for years. Besides > having an external spin on filter that is cheaper and more readily > available than the Honda oil filter element, the system offers an oil thermostat > that will help to regulate the temperature of the oil flowing through the > cooling coils. Which will maintain the oil at a more stable temperature > and cool the engine. So do parts wear over time, yes there is no stopping > wear but it can be reduced and the viscosity retained in the > lubricant. Also, by having an external filtering system, components can be > added to monitor temperature and oil pressure. With the only parts being > modified are the original oil filter cap and center bolt. If you have ever > opened the cases of the Honda 600 engine you saw the blackened tar like material > on everything. That's what over heated oil does and oil that is being > constantly baked loses it's lubricating capability.
> Yes,
> changing the oil, using a better oil and ensuring all the adjustments are > correct helps. With the design of the Honda 600 engine where the same > oil lubricates the transmission and engine at the same time should allow the oil > to cool some before being pumped back up to the cam box and down the through the > engine again. It should also be noted that the oil pump circulates all the > oil once every minute at idle or 1100 rpms. And 5.5 times that when your > cruising down the road at 65mph. There is not a lot of time for the oil to > cool off "and" when you drop off the freeway the oil temp will climb to 230 + > degrees in the case at the first stop light. The temp of the oil in > bearings can run much higher and with only a limited amount of oil to > dissipate the heat (about 3 quarts) things tend to heat up.
> Beefing up other components in the engine will
> help. Miles made a steel oil pump rod that is the best insurance to having > a bullet proof oil pump. Using that oil pump rod and sleeving the > eccentric it runs on to ensure everything is with in spec is the best way to > go. I have used oil pumps that were scored and pumps that were new > and they both push 0 psi at idle and about 8 to 10 psi at 3K rpms.
> Oh the new pump pushed about 30 psi at first but after a few > hundred miles it acted just like the old pump. The low psi is due to the > 95% roller/ball bearing in the crankshaft, rods and > transmission.
> I have two Honda 600's one is completely stock
> (its used mainly for shows), no cooler and after running it 15 miles down > the road it is so hot I can't touch the top of the engine. The Honda > 600 run the same distance with the oil cooler is warm, but no where > near the heat on the one with out the oil cooler.
> Just
> something to think about.
> Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com]
> > On
> > Behalf Of
> > theenginebuilder@...
> > Sent:
> > Saturday, July
> > 23, 2011 8:46 AM
> > To:
> > 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject:
> > [2cylinderhondas]
> > (unknown)
> > The part of the question that Bill has left out when asking is that the > > engine is air cooled! When talking to "Help Desks and Salespeople" they > > automatically think you are asking about a regular water cooled engine. The > > heat transfer has already taken place under the paint in a liquid cooled > > engine. In fact the paint has helped the process by forcing some of the heat > > to transfer to the coolant instead of the air. The smooth outside surface of a > > liquid cooled engine does not transfer as much heat as we would like. You > > don't use regular paint on the inside of a water cooled engine because it > > stops heat from transferring through the metal to the cooling system.
> > Sure people paint air cooled engines. It's for looks and it does > > reduce cooling! Remember that "Help Desks and Salespeople" don't own the > > engine that's getting the paint. Doesn't matter what happens to it in the > > future as far as they are concerned. Heat transfer is rocket science and these > > people are not that kind of scientist are they?
> > Go ahead and paint your
> > engine if you want. Somewhere down the line a professional will be glad for > > the engine rebuild job and see the results of lack of > > cooling.
> > Bruce
Re: [2cylinderhondas] (unknown)
Alan;
I will send you pictures and instructions of how it is done.
Bill
I will send you pictures and instructions of how it is done.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of > Alan Stanyon > Sent:
> Wednesday, July 27, 2011 11:20
> PM
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> RE:
> [anzhonda600owners] RE: [2cylinderhondas] (unknown)
> Hi Bill i agree the oil is the most important thing to keep > engine temperatures down, where are the best take off and return points > for an oil cooler and what size ie capacity whould you recommend i am in > the uk so thing dont get very hot here but we do get some "warm" > ones > Alan
> To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> From: billmyong@...
> Date:
> Wed, 27 Jul 2011 07:00:38 -0700
> Subject: FW: [anzhonda600owners] RE:
> [2cylinderhondas] (unknown)
> Yea know, the group
> is right. This has become a dead horse, no further discussion is > necessary as people with common sense will figure it out and do as they > please.
> Heat does cause parts
> internal to the engine to wear faster. Warn and abused parts of the > engine will fail with time and friction will cause more heat. Exterior > cooling of the engine components is one way but it seems that the unregulated > cooling of anything will cause more damage as lubricants and metal have to > heat up to do their intended work. There are lots of factors that > can cause more heat. An engine out of time, poor performing spark plugs, > points, valve adjustment to name a few. However since the only two > things that will cool an air cooled engine is the Air coming across the fined > areas and the oil why not put a oil cooling system on the car.
> There is an oil
> cooling system used on VW air cooled engines for years. Besides having > an external spin on filter that is cheaper and more readily available > than the Honda oil filter element, the system offers an oil thermostat that > will help to regulate the temperature of the oil flowing through the cooling > coils. Which will maintain the oil at a more stable temperature and cool > the engine. So do parts wear over time, yes there is no stopping wear > but it can be reduced and the viscosity retained in the lubricant.
> Also, by having an external filtering system, components can be added to > monitor temperature and oil pressure. With the only parts being modified > are the original oil filter cap and center bolt. If you have ever opened > the cases of the Honda 600 engine you saw the blackened tar like material on > everything. That's what over heated oil does and oil that is being > constantly baked loses it's lubricating capability.
> Yes, changing the
> oil, using a better oil and ensuring all the adjustments are correct > helps. With the design of the Honda 600 engine where the same oil > lubricates the transmission and engine at the same time should allow the oil > to cool some before being pumped back up to the cam box and down the through > the engine again. It should also be noted that the oil pump circulates > all the oil once every minute at idle or 1100 rpms. And 5.5 times that > when your cruising down the road at 65mph. There is not a lot of time > for the oil to cool off "and" when you drop off the freeway the oil temp will > climb to 230 + degrees in the case at the first stop light. The temp of > the oil in bearings can run much higher and with only a limited amount of > oil to dissipate the heat (about 3 quarts) things tend to heat up.
> Beefing up other
> components in the engine will help. Miles made a steel oil pump rod that > is the best insurance to having a bullet proof oil pump. Using that oil > pump rod and sleeving the eccentric it runs on to ensure everything is with in > spec is the best way to go. I have used oil pumps that were scored > and pumps that were new and they both push 0 psi at idle and about 8 to > 10 psi at 3K rpms. Oh the new pump pushed about 30 psi at > first but after a few hundred miles it acted just like the old > pump. The low psi is due to the 95% roller/ball bearing in the > crankshaft, rods and transmission.
> I have two Honda
> 600's one is completely stock (its used mainly for shows), no cooler > and after running it 15 miles down the road it is so hot I can't > touch the top of the engine. The Honda 600 run the same distance with > the oil cooler is warm, but no where near the heat on the one with > out the oil cooler.
> Just something to
> think about.
> Bill
> > -----Original
> > Message-----
> > From:
> > 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of
> > theenginebuilder@...
> > Sent:
> > Saturday, July 23, 2011 8:46
> > AM
> > To:
> > 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject:
> > [2cylinderhondas]
> > (unknown)
> > The part of the question that Bill has left out when
> > asking is that the engine is air cooled! When talking to "Help Desks and > > Salespeople" they automatically think you are asking about a regular water > > cooled engine. The heat transfer has already taken place under the paint in > > a liquid cooled engine. In fact the paint has helped the process by forcing > > some of the heat to transfer to the coolant instead of the air. The smooth > > outside surface of a liquid cooled engine does not transfer as much heat as > > we would like. You don't use regular paint on the inside of a water cooled > > engine because it stops heat from transferring through the metal to the > > cooling system.
> > Sure people paint air cooled engines. It's for looks
> > and it does reduce cooling! Remember that "Help Desks and Salespeople" don't > > own the engine that's getting the paint. Doesn't matter what happens to it > > in the future as far as they are concerned. Heat transfer is rocket science > > and these people are not that kind of scientist are they?
> > Go ahead
> > and paint your engine if you want. Somewhere down the line a professional > > will be glad for the engine rebuild job and see the results of lack of > > cooling.
> > Bruce
[2cylinderhondas] (unknown)
�
Most coils can be rebuilt, new wires are all that are needed most of the time. See the photo album of the https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/anz ... tos/albums
site.
Bill
Most coils can be rebuilt, new wires are all that are needed most of the time. See the photo album of the https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/anz ... tos/albums
site.
Bill