I need to know how many of you are interested in upgrading your engine to have either roller bearings or oil-lite bearings on the camshaft. Roller bearings are slightly better, but the oil-lite bearings are slightly cheaper. There will probably not be any perceptible performance difference in the 2
Both will give you a couple extra horsepower, both will lower top end running temps.
Cost will be $300 for roller beating mods, $285 for oil-lite bearings
Will need your camholders and camshaft as either cores or to be used. Or I can supply either..
As this is not a real common modification, allow 3 to 4 weeks from point I start.
The cam bearing modification is a proven mod in the Honda motorcycle world. ,
I am also about to make the 2 cam-chain tensioner rollers from metal instead of rubber and these will have a ball bearing in center. Price is not yet determined, but wont be out of reach.
Thanks, and respond to me here or at tgm_enterprizes@...
Richard Morris
Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600’s plus other mods.
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tgm_enterprizes
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RE: [2cylinderhondas] Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus
And the cam chain chewing at the metal rollers will not cause damage to the other internal roller bearings and bearing cages? Have you done tests?
Re: Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus other mods.
Ive seen some n360s in Japan with Brass or Bronze being used.
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 2, 2019, at 7:51 PM, 'Bill'
billmyong@...
[2cylinderhondas] wrote:
And the cam chain chewing at the metal
rollers will not cause damage to the other internal roller bearings and bearing cages? Have you done tests?
From:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
]
Sent:
Saturday, February 02, 2019
7:35 PM
To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[2cylinderhondas] Hi
performance cam bearing mod for 600s plus other mods.
I need to
know how many of you are interested in upgrading your engine to have either roller bearings or oil-lite bearings on the camshaft. Roller bearings are slightly better, but the oil-lite bearings are slightly cheaper. There will probably not be any perceptible performance difference in the 2
Both will give you a couple extra horsepower, both will lower top end running temps.
Cost will be $300 for roller beating mods, $285 for oil-lite bearings
Will need your camholders and camshaft as either cores or to be used. Or I can supply either..
As this is not a real common modification, allow 3 to 4 weeks from point I start.
The cam bearing modification is a proven mod in the Honda motorcycle world. ,
I am also about to make the 2 cam-chain tensioner rollers from metal instead of rubber and these will have a ball bearing in center. Price is not yet determined, but wont be out of reach.
Thanks, and respond to me here or at
tgm_enterprizes@...
Richard Morris
-
tgm_enterprizes
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:59 am
Re: Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus other mods.
I want to explain my logic about using steel rather than rubber for timing chain tensioner wheels. I am also putting a ball bearing in the center of them.
1st and foremost keep in mind that all the high performance timing chain sets for cars like Chevy, ford, mopar, etc. consist of a metal chain and metal gears. Yes, I realize thats not a valid comparison.
My experience with Honda 600s begin in 1977 and I have owned well over 40 coupes and sedans since. In the early 2000s I owned 16 of them at one time. I currently own 4 Honda 600 coupes and a ton of parts.
In that span of time I have seen a lot of engines that died due to what was casually diagnosed as a stretched timing chain. But in many if not most cases, it was due to degradation of at least one of the rubber tensioners as well as a stretched timing chain. As these rubber rollers wear, the effective diameter of them decreases. And once they start to degrade, they degrade quickly. Whats even worse is the upper tensioner that is at the top of the cylinders will start to wear off center. Eventually, the cam chain starts to try and pull off to the side of the upper roller. This can get bad enough that the chain will start to hit the sides of the pocket it runs in (in between the cylinders) resulting in ground aluminum throughout the engine. I have also come across more than a few of the lower tensioner rollers that had seized up on its plain bearing. Unless you had the jugs off or the case split, you would never know your lower tensioner roller was shot.
So, even if you put a new timing chain in your engine that has worn out tensioner rollers, you can have a situation thats basically just like a worn out chain gives you.
I also want to point out that the rubber that gets worn off those 2 rollers might end up plugging an oil supply gallery somewhere in the engine or transmission. So yes, the roller/ball bearings probably can digest rubber, but it simply isnt the whole story. I dont see how any chunks of metal would come off my metal designs. And thats what the oil filter is supposed to catch anyways.
The flattened/worn underside of the cam chain in Bills picture is real, I have seen that before, but I have to offer my opinion that the rubber tensioner wheels didnt cause that type of flattening. It (again in my opinion) was caused by the crankshafts hardened steel pulley.
I tend to agree that using roller bearings or oil-lite to support the cam is overkill. But its still a good modification. Honda used roller and ball bearings in our engines. Maybe it was simply cheaper to run the cam in aluminum plain bearings. Or maybe they never expected to little cars to still be on the road in 2019. (Who would have thought that a $1500 car would last?).
There is one thing I want to mention. You MUST have either a like new or new timing chain as well as both tensioner wheels in order to use the roller bearings for cam support. You cant have the cam trying to walk off to either side. It needs to run dead center just like it supposed to do.
I will paste in the link to a motorcycle site that has threads about roller bearing cam conversions. There are motorcycle roller bearing conversions on eBay now as well.
Richard
1st and foremost keep in mind that all the high performance timing chain sets for cars like Chevy, ford, mopar, etc. consist of a metal chain and metal gears. Yes, I realize thats not a valid comparison.
My experience with Honda 600s begin in 1977 and I have owned well over 40 coupes and sedans since. In the early 2000s I owned 16 of them at one time. I currently own 4 Honda 600 coupes and a ton of parts.
In that span of time I have seen a lot of engines that died due to what was casually diagnosed as a stretched timing chain. But in many if not most cases, it was due to degradation of at least one of the rubber tensioners as well as a stretched timing chain. As these rubber rollers wear, the effective diameter of them decreases. And once they start to degrade, they degrade quickly. Whats even worse is the upper tensioner that is at the top of the cylinders will start to wear off center. Eventually, the cam chain starts to try and pull off to the side of the upper roller. This can get bad enough that the chain will start to hit the sides of the pocket it runs in (in between the cylinders) resulting in ground aluminum throughout the engine. I have also come across more than a few of the lower tensioner rollers that had seized up on its plain bearing. Unless you had the jugs off or the case split, you would never know your lower tensioner roller was shot.
So, even if you put a new timing chain in your engine that has worn out tensioner rollers, you can have a situation thats basically just like a worn out chain gives you.
I also want to point out that the rubber that gets worn off those 2 rollers might end up plugging an oil supply gallery somewhere in the engine or transmission. So yes, the roller/ball bearings probably can digest rubber, but it simply isnt the whole story. I dont see how any chunks of metal would come off my metal designs. And thats what the oil filter is supposed to catch anyways.
The flattened/worn underside of the cam chain in Bills picture is real, I have seen that before, but I have to offer my opinion that the rubber tensioner wheels didnt cause that type of flattening. It (again in my opinion) was caused by the crankshafts hardened steel pulley.
I tend to agree that using roller bearings or oil-lite to support the cam is overkill. But its still a good modification. Honda used roller and ball bearings in our engines. Maybe it was simply cheaper to run the cam in aluminum plain bearings. Or maybe they never expected to little cars to still be on the road in 2019. (Who would have thought that a $1500 car would last?).
There is one thing I want to mention. You MUST have either a like new or new timing chain as well as both tensioner wheels in order to use the roller bearings for cam support. You cant have the cam trying to walk off to either side. It needs to run dead center just like it supposed to do.
I will paste in the link to a motorcycle site that has threads about roller bearing cam conversions. There are motorcycle roller bearing conversions on eBay now as well.
Richard
Re: Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus other mods.
Richard;
The cam bearing/end caps do a remarkable job just as they are with out any modification.
Only when the oil pump fails do the bearing caps fail, not do to design but lack of lubrication.
On the steel center, tension rollers you talk about, see the attached pictures. Yes, a stretched cam chain creates more damage but it’s the stretched cam chain. It chews on everything and if the rollers are not changed when they too show ware they will allow more damage by the cam chain. But Honda didn’t use rubber rollers because it was cheaper, it’s because they work. As you can see in slides 2, 3 and 4 the cam chain does cause damage to the steel parts in the motor already. So why add another piece of metal for the cam chain to chew on 100% of the time.
I too have had over 40 Honda 600’s and have done considerable testing with different materials, for gaskets, rollers, slippers, dampeners to name a few, even to building a test motor to test parts I and others have made. Many have failed which caused changes so other parts could pass testing. Remember WD40 got its name from 39 failures.
But why in 1977 when thousands of Honda 600’s were still on the road, didn’t Honda use steel rollers or even a steel slipper? Because maybe with their vast R & D center they found that the cam chain with its ravenous attitude it would be better to use rubber covered rollers and slipper allowing some disposable rubber to fall into the systems oil than metal chips and do the job better.
Just my knowledgeable opinion.
Bill
The cam bearing/end caps do a remarkable job just as they are with out any modification.
Only when the oil pump fails do the bearing caps fail, not do to design but lack of lubrication.
On the steel center, tension rollers you talk about, see the attached pictures. Yes, a stretched cam chain creates more damage but it’s the stretched cam chain. It chews on everything and if the rollers are not changed when they too show ware they will allow more damage by the cam chain. But Honda didn’t use rubber rollers because it was cheaper, it’s because they work. As you can see in slides 2, 3 and 4 the cam chain does cause damage to the steel parts in the motor already. So why add another piece of metal for the cam chain to chew on 100% of the time.
I too have had over 40 Honda 600’s and have done considerable testing with different materials, for gaskets, rollers, slippers, dampeners to name a few, even to building a test motor to test parts I and others have made. Many have failed which caused changes so other parts could pass testing. Remember WD40 got its name from 39 failures.
But why in 1977 when thousands of Honda 600’s were still on the road, didn’t Honda use steel rollers or even a steel slipper? Because maybe with their vast R & D center they found that the cam chain with its ravenous attitude it would be better to use rubber covered rollers and slipper allowing some disposable rubber to fall into the systems oil than metal chips and do the job better.
Just my knowledgeable opinion.
Bill
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Re: Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus other mods.
Here is a link to the motorcycle version of the camshaft bearings mods.
https://www.hondatwins.net/forums/48-en ... pics/31625
And finally, I suggest everyone pay attention to Bills responses. He is much more the expert than I am. But I still feel like I am correct, and Bill is also correct.
Buyers are faced with 2 opinions. It boils down to what you want to do. If it comes down to originality, you will not buy my stuff OR Bills new clear rubber wheels. You would only want OEM parts.
Sincerely and with a lot of respect to Bill,
Richard Morris
https://www.hondatwins.net/forums/48-en ... pics/31625
And finally, I suggest everyone pay attention to Bills responses. He is much more the expert than I am. But I still feel like I am correct, and Bill is also correct.
Buyers are faced with 2 opinions. It boils down to what you want to do. If it comes down to originality, you will not buy my stuff OR Bills new clear rubber wheels. You would only want OEM parts.
Sincerely and with a lot of respect to Bill,
Richard Morris
Re: Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus other mods.
Richard;
I went to the page posted here and at one point, I too felt this would be a alternative to aluminum bearings Honda used in the N600 engines. But a very smart machinist, who not only owned his own machine shop but taught at the San Diego Southwest Community Collage, walked me through a number of obstacles this would present. Because the N600 engine supports a mechanical advance assembly on the right side of the cam that end’s size would have to maintain its dimensions allowing for the drive pin to connect with the base of that assembly and retain its oil seal. To which we couldn’t find a roller bearing to fit without adding to the shaft’s OD and machining to fit. Then the bearing cap on both ends would have to be modified to fit the bearing and he didn’t think there was sufficient meat to hold the bearing housing/race. The opposite end had similar problems as the timing notch also had to be filled, machined and cap modified. A costly option, for sure but like anything custom – throw enough money at it and things can be done. So here Richard is correct, it can be done, but is it needed?
Richard also mentioned that I have some clear rollers; these are in testing and will be for some time. Using a used cam chain (so it would equal some of the ware properties of an engine with around 50K miles on it) to more quickly attain its chewing affects during testing, several 20 minute runs have been completed and these rollers and slipper have so far proved effective. But more tests need to be done.
I might also add that Miles Chappell has done some parts manufacturing and modifications him self and moderates the 2cylinderhonda yahoo group. And, knows these small engines very well.
Bill
I went to the page posted here and at one point, I too felt this would be a alternative to aluminum bearings Honda used in the N600 engines. But a very smart machinist, who not only owned his own machine shop but taught at the San Diego Southwest Community Collage, walked me through a number of obstacles this would present. Because the N600 engine supports a mechanical advance assembly on the right side of the cam that end’s size would have to maintain its dimensions allowing for the drive pin to connect with the base of that assembly and retain its oil seal. To which we couldn’t find a roller bearing to fit without adding to the shaft’s OD and machining to fit. Then the bearing cap on both ends would have to be modified to fit the bearing and he didn’t think there was sufficient meat to hold the bearing housing/race. The opposite end had similar problems as the timing notch also had to be filled, machined and cap modified. A costly option, for sure but like anything custom – throw enough money at it and things can be done. So here Richard is correct, it can be done, but is it needed?
Richard also mentioned that I have some clear rollers; these are in testing and will be for some time. Using a used cam chain (so it would equal some of the ware properties of an engine with around 50K miles on it) to more quickly attain its chewing affects during testing, several 20 minute runs have been completed and these rollers and slipper have so far proved effective. But more tests need to be done.
I might also add that Miles Chappell has done some parts manufacturing and modifications him self and moderates the 2cylinderhonda yahoo group. And, knows these small engines very well.
Bill