Need a opinion
Need a opinion
I have 2 sedans, one early 70 (4/70) and a 71 (5/71). The 71 I have had for about 3 years and the 70 I just recently aquired for little to nothing. The 71 needs a fair amount of bodywork but has all of the original documentation/paperwork and i know most of the history about it while the 70 has a really clean strait body but no paperwork or anything but the title. I am just trying to figure out what car I should go with? I could keep both but I am limited on space. What does everyone else think? Just want a opinion. Thanks.
Re: Need a opinion
Cut the middle out of one, split the other down the middle, weld in the center section from the other, and make a limo. Problem solved!
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Josh
�
> I have 2 sedans, one early 70 (4/70) and a 71 (5/71). The 71 I have had for about 3 years and the 70 I just recently aquired for little to nothing. The 71 needs a fair amount of bodywork but has all of the original documentation/paperwork and i know most of the history about it while the 70 has a really clean strait body but no paperwork or anything but the title. I am just trying to figure out what car I should go with? I could keep both but I am limited on space. What does everyone else think? Just want a opinion. Thanks.
--
Professional Isetta Restorations
Re: Need a opinion
Hi,
I'm a lurker here, but I have been shopping for of of these for a year now. I own another "unusual" collector car a '73 Lotus Europa.
I've this to be true of both cars. History and paperwork add almost no value to the car. It's Condition, condition, condition.
With "unusual" cars you can almost never get back the cost of body work.
my $.02, build the best car you can from the 2 and keep the documentation as it is always fun to look at.
BrianM
At 09:23 AM 3/16/2010, you wrote:
I'm a lurker here, but I have been shopping for of of these for a year now. I own another "unusual" collector car a '73 Lotus Europa.
I've this to be true of both cars. History and paperwork add almost no value to the car. It's Condition, condition, condition.
With "unusual" cars you can almost never get back the cost of body work.
my $.02, build the best car you can from the 2 and keep the documentation as it is always fun to look at.
BrianM
At 09:23 AM 3/16/2010, you wrote:
> I have 2 sedans, one early 70 (4/70) and a 71 (5/71). The 71 I have had > for about 3 years and the 70 I just recently aquired for little to > nothing. The 71 needs a fair amount of bodywork but has all of the > original documentation/paperwork and i know most of the history about it > while the 70 has a really clean strait body but no paperwork or anything > but the title. I am just trying to figure out what car I should go with?
> I could keep both but I am limited on space. What does everyone else > think? Just want a opinion. Thanks.
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Bram Evenhuis
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Need a opinion
I should use the body from the second one to keep the first one alive,put all the mechanical over,exept the bad ones and keep the paperwork with it. Its a LOT of work but rebuilding a body is worse.
Re: Need a opinion
I would stay with the one that is in the best condition if it was up to me.... less work. if both motors are good I would be thinking of having the other as a spare or if need be, to work on.
Good luck Josh
Tom T
Good luck Josh
Tom T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> Josh
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:23
> AM
> Subject:
> [2cylinderhondas] Need a
> opinion
> I have 2 sedans, one early 70 (4/70) and a 71 (5/71). The 71 I have had for > about 3 years and the 70 I just recently aquired for little to nothing. The 71 > needs a fair amount of bodywork but has all of the original > documentation/ paperwork and i know most of the history about it while the > 70 has a really clean strait body but no paperwork or anything but the title.
> I am just trying to figure out what car I should go with? I could keep both > but I am limited on space. What does everyone else think? Just want a opinion.
> Thanks.
Re: Need a opinion
That's a tough call since it depends on how you want to restore it.
The 1971 car is superior in design to the 1970 car (for reasons I will note below) but you are faced with choosing between a 1970 car in great body shape vs. a 1971 car needing extensive body work. Here are some things to consider;
1. Not very many 1970 Honda 600s are still around. If you wish to restore it to original condition, some of the parts will be harder to locate. In most cases, you may end up using a 1971 or 1972 style of part.
2. If you are intending to restore the 1970 car to its original condition, the 1970 brake system and engine/transmission are different from the 1971/1972. Here are some of the differences;
a) the 1970 used a single cylinder on each rear brake to activate the drum brake. Later years used a double cylinder (both the n600 & Z600). So, you have parts unique to this year only. To upgrade to the later model is a major effort. I think the frames on the 1970 brake shoe had some notches which were slightly different from the later models. So, you have to get the correct shoes or get your current ones relined.
b) the transmission is unique. The 1970 uses a non-synchromesh transmission. So, you will want to double-clutch when downshifting. 1971 and later used a synchromesh transmission which is much nicer.
c) the carburetor on the 1970 was unique and used a diaphragm which is going to be hard to find. If you want to restore the car to original condition, you will need to find an older style carb which does not have a torn diaphragm. If you don't care about restoring to original condition, you put on the newer style carb found on the 1971 and later cars.
d) the 1970 car preheated the air going into the carb differently than the 1971 and later. The 1971 and later cars had a winter/summer lever on the air cleaner horn which would select whether air was not pre-heated (summer) or if it was to be pre-heated by the heat exchanger (winter). The 1970 did not have this lever..... the air going into the carb was always a mix of air from the outside plus a little bit of air from the back of the engine (via the fan). The 1971 and later was a better system. If you don't care about restoring to original condition....
go with the 1971 and later design.
3. As a collectible, years from now the 1970 may have a higher value than a 1971/72 sedan because;
a) in the US, it is considered the original Honda car sold here. Unfortunately, many in the US consider the Honda Civic as the first car made by Honda and sold in the USA.
Honda's current car commercial is starting with the Civic and showing the evolution of their car.
b) the numbers are small....not many sold and still around compared with the 1971 and later
c) if you are at a show with other Honda 600 owners, most of them will have 1971 and later and will have parts from a 1971 and later. They will want to look at the 1970 to see what was unique about it. And if you have the non-syncho transmission, people will want to try it to see how it feels (most people will hate it).
d) it plain-ness due to less chrome and emblems makes it look unique when next to later model N600s.
e) the 1970 engine was inferior compared to the 1971 and later. It used a primary drive which would disintegrate the dampers.....you will want to replace it with the later model found in 1971/72, The cylinder barrel on the 1970 needed o-rings on the bottom. Minor items but something to keep in mind when rebuilding the engine. The use of o-rings were not a big deal but they must be installed if the engine required them. The later engines had the better primary drive and did not need the o-rings.
If you don't care about restoring the car to original condition, take the care which is in the best shape mechanically and blend the pieces from the 2 cars. Don't worry that your car is no longer original...most people will not know (or care). If you do care about restoring to original condition, I would pick the 1970 since it is in better condition. As a 1970, I would hold on to the old style carb and put on the newer style carb when using the car. If you ever sell the car, you have the correct parts to restore it to vintage condition.
Also, you could take the 1970 car and build it up in the Hawaiian configuration which would get you a good price when you sell it. I suspect the Hawaiian configuration can command the highest price of all the 600 sedan models because of its uniqueness and extra factory hp.
good luck,
Dale
The 1971 car is superior in design to the 1970 car (for reasons I will note below) but you are faced with choosing between a 1970 car in great body shape vs. a 1971 car needing extensive body work. Here are some things to consider;
1. Not very many 1970 Honda 600s are still around. If you wish to restore it to original condition, some of the parts will be harder to locate. In most cases, you may end up using a 1971 or 1972 style of part.
2. If you are intending to restore the 1970 car to its original condition, the 1970 brake system and engine/transmission are different from the 1971/1972. Here are some of the differences;
a) the 1970 used a single cylinder on each rear brake to activate the drum brake. Later years used a double cylinder (both the n600 & Z600). So, you have parts unique to this year only. To upgrade to the later model is a major effort. I think the frames on the 1970 brake shoe had some notches which were slightly different from the later models. So, you have to get the correct shoes or get your current ones relined.
b) the transmission is unique. The 1970 uses a non-synchromesh transmission. So, you will want to double-clutch when downshifting. 1971 and later used a synchromesh transmission which is much nicer.
c) the carburetor on the 1970 was unique and used a diaphragm which is going to be hard to find. If you want to restore the car to original condition, you will need to find an older style carb which does not have a torn diaphragm. If you don't care about restoring to original condition, you put on the newer style carb found on the 1971 and later cars.
d) the 1970 car preheated the air going into the carb differently than the 1971 and later. The 1971 and later cars had a winter/summer lever on the air cleaner horn which would select whether air was not pre-heated (summer) or if it was to be pre-heated by the heat exchanger (winter). The 1970 did not have this lever..... the air going into the carb was always a mix of air from the outside plus a little bit of air from the back of the engine (via the fan). The 1971 and later was a better system. If you don't care about restoring to original condition....
go with the 1971 and later design.
3. As a collectible, years from now the 1970 may have a higher value than a 1971/72 sedan because;
a) in the US, it is considered the original Honda car sold here. Unfortunately, many in the US consider the Honda Civic as the first car made by Honda and sold in the USA.
Honda's current car commercial is starting with the Civic and showing the evolution of their car.
b) the numbers are small....not many sold and still around compared with the 1971 and later
c) if you are at a show with other Honda 600 owners, most of them will have 1971 and later and will have parts from a 1971 and later. They will want to look at the 1970 to see what was unique about it. And if you have the non-syncho transmission, people will want to try it to see how it feels (most people will hate it).
d) it plain-ness due to less chrome and emblems makes it look unique when next to later model N600s.
e) the 1970 engine was inferior compared to the 1971 and later. It used a primary drive which would disintegrate the dampers.....you will want to replace it with the later model found in 1971/72, The cylinder barrel on the 1970 needed o-rings on the bottom. Minor items but something to keep in mind when rebuilding the engine. The use of o-rings were not a big deal but they must be installed if the engine required them. The later engines had the better primary drive and did not need the o-rings.
If you don't care about restoring the car to original condition, take the care which is in the best shape mechanically and blend the pieces from the 2 cars. Don't worry that your car is no longer original...most people will not know (or care). If you do care about restoring to original condition, I would pick the 1970 since it is in better condition. As a 1970, I would hold on to the old style carb and put on the newer style carb when using the car. If you ever sell the car, you have the correct parts to restore it to vintage condition.
Also, you could take the 1970 car and build it up in the Hawaiian configuration which would get you a good price when you sell it. I suspect the Hawaiian configuration can command the highest price of all the 600 sedan models because of its uniqueness and extra factory hp.
good luck,
Dale
> I have
> 2 sedans, one early 70 (4/70) and a 71 (5/71). The 71 I have had for about 3 > years and the 70 I just recently aquired for little to nothing. The 71 needs a > fair amount of bodywork but has all of the original > documentation/ paperwork and i know most of the history about it while the > 70 has a really clean strait body but no paperwork or anything but the title.
> I am just trying to figure out what car I should go with? I could keep both > but I am limited on space. What does everyone else think? Just want a opinion.
> Thanks.
Re: Need a opinion
also, f) Fan switch for heater was integrated into a slider switch for 71 & 72 g) The clutch cable is shorter for 70, the radius was too tight and was replaced with a much longer cable that wraps around the fan assembly.
h) seat belt buckle was airline style for 70, push button used for later model.
Bruce D.
Santa Clara, CA From:
"goinhm@..." To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com Sent:
Tue, March 16, 2010 1:30:22 PM Subject:
Re: [2cylinderhondas] Need a opinion
That's a tough call since it depends on how you want to restore it.
The 1971 car is superior in design to the 1970 car (for reasons I will note below) but you are faced with choosing between a 1970 car in great body shape vs. a 1971 car needing extensive body work. Here are some things to consider;
1. Not very many 1970 Honda 600s are still around. If you wish to restore it to original condition, some of the parts will be harder to locate. In most cases, you may end up using a 1971 or 1972 style of part.
2. If you are intending to restore the 1970 car to its original condition, the 1970 brake system and engine/transmission are different from the 1971/1972. Here are some of the differences;
a) the 1970 used a single cylinder on each rear brake to activate the drum brake. Later years used a double cylinder (both the n600 & Z600). So, you have parts unique to this year only. To upgrade to the later model is a major effort. I think the frames on the 1970 brake shoe had some notches which were slightly different from the later models. So, you have to get the correct shoes or get your current ones relined.
b) the transmission is unique. The 1970 uses a non-synchromesh transmission. So, you will want to double-clutch when downshifting. 1971 and later used a synchromesh transmission which is much nicer.
c) the carburetor on the 1970 was unique and used a diaphragm which is going to be hard to find. If you want to restore the car to original condition, you will need to find an older style carb which does not have a torn diaphragm. If you don't care about restoring to original condition, you put on the newer style carb found on the 1971 and later cars.
d) the 1970 car preheated the air going into the carb differently than the 1971 and later. The 1971 and later cars had a winter/summer lever on the air cleaner horn which would select whether air was not pre-heated (summer) or if it was to be pre-heated by the heat exchanger (winter). The 1970 did not have this lever..... the air going into the carb was always a mix of air from the outside plus a little bit of air from the back of the engine (via the fan). The 1971 and later was a better system. If you don't care about restoring to original condition... .
go with the 1971 and later design.
3. As a collectible, years from now the 1970 may have a higher value than a 1971/72 sedan because;
a) in the US, it is considered the original Honda car sold here. Unfortunately, many in the US consider the Honda Civic as the first car made by Honda and sold in the USA.
Honda's current car commercial is starting with the Civic and showing the evolution of their car.
b) the numbers are small....not many sold and still around compared with the 1971 and later
c) if you are at a show with other Honda 600 owners, most of them will have 1971 and later and will have parts from a 1971 and later. They will want to look at the 1970 to see what was unique about it. And if you have the non-syncho transmission, people will want to try it to see how it feels (most people will hate it).
d) it plain-ness due to less chrome and emblems makes it look unique when next to later model N600s.
e) the 1970 engine was inferior compared to the 1971 and later. It used a primary drive which would disintegrate the dampers..... you will want to replace it with the later model found in 1971/72, The cylinder barrel on the 1970 needed o-rings on the bottom. Minor items but something to keep in mind when rebuilding the engine. The use of o-rings were not a big deal but they must be installed if the engine required them. The later engines had the better primary drive and did not need the o-rings.
If you don't care about restoring the car to original condition, take the care which is in the best shape mechanically and blend the pieces from the 2 cars. Don't worry that your car is no longer original...most people will not know (or care). If you do care about restoring to original condition, I would pick the 1970 since it is in better condition. As a 1970, I would hold on to the old style carb and put on the newer style carb when using the car. If you ever sell the car, you have the correct parts to restore it to vintage condition.
Also, you could take the 1970 car and build it up in the Hawaiian configuration which would get you a good price when you sell it. I suspect the Hawaiian configuration can command the highest price of all the 600 sedan models because of its uniqueness and extra factory hp.
good luck,
Dale
h) seat belt buckle was airline style for 70, push button used for later model.
Bruce D.
Santa Clara, CA From:
"goinhm@..." To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com Sent:
Tue, March 16, 2010 1:30:22 PM Subject:
Re: [2cylinderhondas] Need a opinion
That's a tough call since it depends on how you want to restore it.
The 1971 car is superior in design to the 1970 car (for reasons I will note below) but you are faced with choosing between a 1970 car in great body shape vs. a 1971 car needing extensive body work. Here are some things to consider;
1. Not very many 1970 Honda 600s are still around. If you wish to restore it to original condition, some of the parts will be harder to locate. In most cases, you may end up using a 1971 or 1972 style of part.
2. If you are intending to restore the 1970 car to its original condition, the 1970 brake system and engine/transmission are different from the 1971/1972. Here are some of the differences;
a) the 1970 used a single cylinder on each rear brake to activate the drum brake. Later years used a double cylinder (both the n600 & Z600). So, you have parts unique to this year only. To upgrade to the later model is a major effort. I think the frames on the 1970 brake shoe had some notches which were slightly different from the later models. So, you have to get the correct shoes or get your current ones relined.
b) the transmission is unique. The 1970 uses a non-synchromesh transmission. So, you will want to double-clutch when downshifting. 1971 and later used a synchromesh transmission which is much nicer.
c) the carburetor on the 1970 was unique and used a diaphragm which is going to be hard to find. If you want to restore the car to original condition, you will need to find an older style carb which does not have a torn diaphragm. If you don't care about restoring to original condition, you put on the newer style carb found on the 1971 and later cars.
d) the 1970 car preheated the air going into the carb differently than the 1971 and later. The 1971 and later cars had a winter/summer lever on the air cleaner horn which would select whether air was not pre-heated (summer) or if it was to be pre-heated by the heat exchanger (winter). The 1970 did not have this lever..... the air going into the carb was always a mix of air from the outside plus a little bit of air from the back of the engine (via the fan). The 1971 and later was a better system. If you don't care about restoring to original condition... .
go with the 1971 and later design.
3. As a collectible, years from now the 1970 may have a higher value than a 1971/72 sedan because;
a) in the US, it is considered the original Honda car sold here. Unfortunately, many in the US consider the Honda Civic as the first car made by Honda and sold in the USA.
Honda's current car commercial is starting with the Civic and showing the evolution of their car.
b) the numbers are small....not many sold and still around compared with the 1971 and later
c) if you are at a show with other Honda 600 owners, most of them will have 1971 and later and will have parts from a 1971 and later. They will want to look at the 1970 to see what was unique about it. And if you have the non-syncho transmission, people will want to try it to see how it feels (most people will hate it).
d) it plain-ness due to less chrome and emblems makes it look unique when next to later model N600s.
e) the 1970 engine was inferior compared to the 1971 and later. It used a primary drive which would disintegrate the dampers..... you will want to replace it with the later model found in 1971/72, The cylinder barrel on the 1970 needed o-rings on the bottom. Minor items but something to keep in mind when rebuilding the engine. The use of o-rings were not a big deal but they must be installed if the engine required them. The later engines had the better primary drive and did not need the o-rings.
If you don't care about restoring the car to original condition, take the care which is in the best shape mechanically and blend the pieces from the 2 cars. Don't worry that your car is no longer original...most people will not know (or care). If you do care about restoring to original condition, I would pick the 1970 since it is in better condition. As a 1970, I would hold on to the old style carb and put on the newer style carb when using the car. If you ever sell the car, you have the correct parts to restore it to vintage condition.
Also, you could take the 1970 car and build it up in the Hawaiian configuration which would get you a good price when you sell it. I suspect the Hawaiian configuration can command the highest price of all the 600 sedan models because of its uniqueness and extra factory hp.
good luck,
Dale
> I have
> 2 sedans, one early 70 (4/70) and a 71 (5/71). The 71 I have had for about 3 > years and the 70 I just recently aquired for little to nothing. The 71 needs a > fair amount of bodywork but has all of the original > documentation/ paperwork and i know most of the history about it while the > 70 has a really clean strait body but no paperwork or anything but the title.
> I am just trying to figure out what car I should go with? I could keep both > but I am limited on space. What does everyone else think? Just want a opinion.
> Thanks.
Re: Need a opinion
I want to say thanks to everyone who has gave me input and advice. It has hepled. I posted some pictures of the two cars, you can find them in the "new photos" link on the front page. The red one is the 70 and the yellow is the 71.
--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, goinhm@... wrote:
> That's a tough call since it depends on how you want to restore it. The
> 1971 car is superior in design to the 1970 car (for reasons I will note
> below) but you are faced with choosing between a 1970 car in great body shape
> vs. a 1971 car needing extensive body work. Here are some things to
> consider;
> 1. Not very many 1970 Honda 600s are still around. If you wish to restore
> it to original condition, some of the parts will be harder to locate. In
> most cases, you may end up using a 1971 or 1972 style of part.
> 2. If you are intending to restore the 1970 car to its original
> condition, the 1970 brake system and engine/transmission are different from the
> 1971/1972. Here are some of the differences;
> a) the 1970 used a single cylinder on each rear brake to activate the
> drum brake. Later years used a double cylinder (both the n600 & Z600).
> So, you have parts unique to this year only. To upgrade to the later model
> is a major effort. I think the frames on the 1970 brake shoe had some
> notches which were slightly different from the later models. So, you have to
> get the correct shoes or get your current ones relined.
> b) the transmission is unique. The 1970 uses a non-synchromesh
> transmission. So, you will want to double-clutch when downshifting. 1971 and
> later used a synchromesh transmission which is much nicer.
> c) the carburetor on the 1970 was unique and used a diaphragm which
> is going to be hard to find. If you want to restore the car to original
> condition, you will need to find an older style carb which does not have a
> torn diaphragm. If you don't care about restoring to original condition,
> you put on the newer style carb found on the 1971 and later cars.
> d) the 1970 car preheated the air going into the carb differently
> than the 1971 and later. The 1971 and later cars had a winter/summer lever on
> the air cleaner horn which would select whether air was not pre-heated
> (summer) or if it was to be pre-heated by the heat exchanger (winter). The
> 1970 did not have this lever..... the air going into the carb was always a
> mix of air from the outside plus a little bit of air from the back of the
> engine (via the fan). The 1971 and later was a better system. If you don't
> care about restoring to original condition.... go with the 1971 and later
> design.
> 3. As a collectible, years from now the 1970 may have a higher value
> than a 1971/72 sedan because;
> a) in the US, it is considered the original Honda car sold here.
> Unfortunately, many in the US consider the Honda Civic as the first car made
> by Honda and sold in the USA. Honda's current car commercial is starting
> with the Civic and showing the evolution of their car.
> b) the numbers are small....not many sold and still around compared
> with the 1971 and later
> c) if you are at a show with other Honda 600 owners, most of them
> will have 1971 and later and will have parts from a 1971 and later. They
> will want to look at the 1970 to see what was unique about it. And if you
> have the non-syncho transmission, people will want to try it to see how it
> feels (most people will hate it).
> d) it plain-ness due to less chrome and emblems makes it look unique
> when next to later model N600s.
> e) the 1970 engine was inferior compared to the 1971 and later. It
> used a primary drive which would disintegrate the dampers.....you will want
> to replace it with the later model found in 1971/72, The cylinder barrel
> on the 1970 needed o-rings on the bottom. Minor items but something to keep
> in mind when rebuilding the engine. The use of o-rings were not a big
> deal but they must be installed if the engine required them. The later
> engines had the better primary drive and did not need the o-rings.
> If you don't care about restoring the car to original condition, take the
> care which is in the best shape mechanically and blend the pieces from the
> 2 cars. Don't worry that your car is no longer original...most people will
> not know (or care). If you do care about restoring to original
> condition, I would pick the 1970 since it is in better condition. As a 1970, I
> would hold on to the old style carb and put on the newer style carb when
> using the car. If you ever sell the car, you have the correct parts to
> restore it to vintage condition.
> Also, you could take the 1970 car and build it up in the Hawaiian
> configuration which would get you a good price when you sell it. I suspect the
> Hawaiian configuration can command the highest price of all the 600 sedan
> models because of its uniqueness and extra factory hp.
> good luck,
> Dale
> I have 2 sedans, one early 70 (4/70) and a 71 (5/71). The 71 I have had
> for about 3 years and the 70 I just recently aquired for little to nothing.
> The 71 needs a fair amount of bodywork but has all of the original
> documentation/I have 2 sedans, one early 70 (4/70) and a 71 (5/71). The 71 I have
> had for about 3 years and the 70 I just recently aquired for little to
> nothing. The 71 needs a fair amount of bodywork but has all of the original
> documentation/paperwork and i know most of the history about it while the
> 70