Honda 600 melt down

[Mark P Hatten]

My N600 melts down. I don't quite understand it all yet. I replaced the alternator brushes and thought I had repaired the charging system. A couple of days go by, I get in to drive home from work and "???!". I need to vent and cool off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPVM-0BzRsg
Mark Portland Or.
www.mphspecialties.com

[gary_electric]

Mark,
That's nuts! I was actually taking Matilda for a ride last night, and noticed smoke coming from under the dash. When I pulled over, and shut it down, I found that the coil that comes off the heater fan control was hot enough to melt wire. It hadn't ever done this before. Turns out, if I run my heater fan on high, it only gets slightly warm, but if I run it on low, it could catch fire. Good thing high is the only useful setting..
Gary

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> My N600 melts down. I don't quite understand it all yet. I replaced the alternator brushes and thought I had repaired the charging system. A couple of days go by, I get in to drive home from work and "???!". I need to vent and cool off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPVM-0BzRsg
> Mark
> Portland Or.
> www.mphspecialties.com

[richmccolman]

Mark - There's a reason why a car needs to be grounded from the battery to BOTH the engine AND the body/chassis. You can't count on having a solid ground between the battery and the body without a separate battery-to-body ground cable.
If the engine were solidly mounted metal-to-metal to the chassis/body, a separate battery-to-body grounding cable wouldn't be necessary. However, remember that great care is taken to mechanically dampen the engine-to-chassis mounting points, using rubber or urethane, in order to reduce engine vibrations from getting transmitted into the chassis and body. Both rubber and urethane are electrical insulators as well, and serve to isolate the engine from the body, electrically. If only the engine is grounded to the battery, that means that all of the other non-engine-mounted electrical devices in the car have to derive one side of their circuits (the ground) through any (limited) engine-to-body/chassis metallic connections. Other than perhaps the shift linkage, the other metallic parts that might make significant electrically-conductive connections between engine and body/chassis would be stuff like the clutch or tach cables. Since the conductive connections through those pathways is nothing close to that of a solid battery-to-body ground cable, it's not at all weird that you'd end up with a prime electrical pathway through each of those cables and have them heat up as a result. Although you might be able to get by running some light electrical loads in this configuration, turning on things like headlights or the blower motor, or worse -- multiple devices, can start to heat things up quite a lot since those parts are pretty flimsy compared with a big battery-to-body ground cable. If you try to pull too much electrical current though an inadequate electrical pathway, you get a lot of resistance to the electron flow and the result is HEAT, similarly to trying running a 1500-watt hair dryer through a small 22-gauge wire.
Hopefully those parts you identified in the video are the only casualties. However, it might be prudent to also look over the other wiring in the car to make sure that you don't have some cables with melted or burnt insulation.
Good luck,
Richard

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> My N600 melts down. I don't quite understand it all yet. I replaced the alternator brushes and thought I had repaired the charging system. A couple of days go by, I get in to drive home from work and "???!". I need to vent and cool off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPVM-0BzRsg
> Mark
> Portland Or.
> www.mphspecialties.com

[richmccolman]

Actually as I think about it some more, I suspect that the rest of the car wiring should probably be okay. Just add a battery ground to the body (along with the mechanical cables that got toasted) and you should be alright, I think. It's probably worth verifying that components like the voltage regulator didn't get damaged by the incident.
Richard

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "richmccolman" wrote:
> Mark - There's a reason why a car needs to be grounded from the battery to BOTH the engine AND the body/chassis. You can't count on having a solid ground between the battery and the body without a separate battery-to-body ground cable.
> If the engine were solidly mounted metal-to-metal to the chassis/body, a separate battery-to-body grounding cable wouldn't be necessary. However, remember that great care is taken to mechanically dampen the engine-to-chassis mounting points, using rubber or urethane, in order to reduce engine vibrations from getting transmitted into the chassis and body. Both rubber and urethane are electrical insulators as well, and serve to isolate the engine from the body, electrically. If only the engine is grounded to the battery, that means that all of the other non-engine-mounted electrical devices in the car have to derive one side of their circuits (the ground) through any (limited) engine-to-body/chassis metallic connections. Other than perhaps the shift linkage, the other metallic parts that might make significant electrically-conductive connections between engine and body/chassis would be stuff like the clutch or tach cables. Since the conductive connections through those pathways is nothing close to that of a solid battery-to-body ground cable, it's not at all weird that you'd end up with a prime electrical pathway through each of those cables and have them heat up as a result. Although you might be able to get by running some light electrical loads in this configuration, turning on things like headlights or the blower motor, or worse -- multiple devices, can start to heat things up quite a lot since those parts are pretty flimsy compared with a big battery-to-body ground cable. If you try to pull too much electrical current though an inadequate electrical pathway, you get a lot of resistance to the electron flow and the result is HEAT, similarly to trying running a 1500-watt hair dryer through a small 22-gauge wire.
> Hopefully those parts you identified in the video are the only casualties. However, it might be prudent to also look over the other wiring in the car to make sure that you don't have some cables with melted or burnt insulation.
> Good luck,
> Richard
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > My N600 melts down. I don't quite understand it all yet. I replaced the alternator brushes and thought I had repaired the charging system. A couple of days go by, I get in to drive home from work and "???!". I need to vent and cool off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPVM-0BzRsg
> > Mark
> > Portland Or.
> > www.mphspecialties.com

[Mark P Hatten]

Thanks for all your responses fellas. Yes I do believe it's a body ground issue.  I'd forgotten, that about a month ago or more I repaired a sagging rear motor mount. The metal innards of the mount was resting on in the metal outer parts, causing the engine to sag and gear shift to hang low through the fire wall hole. I raised and filled the mount with new rubber. Effectively insulating  the engine from the body.  Then after replacing the brushes and getting the charge system working created the perfect storm melt down. All the cables are being rebuilt. Speedo, clutch, and throttle. One dash light wire melted and some charging wires also got melted. I'll be putting engine to body ground straps on every thing I own from now on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPVM-0BzRsg
Mark Portland Or.
www.mphspecialties.com
Actually as I think about it some more, I suspect that the rest of the car wiring should probably be okay. Just add a battery ground to the body (along with the mechanical cables that got toasted) and you should be alright, I think. It's probably worth verifying that components like the voltage regulator didn't get damaged by the incident.
Richard

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "richmccolman" wrote:
> Chas is right. There's a reason why a car needs to be grounded from the battery to BOTH the engine AND the body/chassis. You can't count on having a solid ground between the battery and the body without a separate battery-to-body ground cable.
> If the engine were solidly mounted metal-to-metal to the chassis/body, a separate battery-to-body grounding cable wouldn't be necessary. However, remember that great care is taken to mechanically dampen the engine-to-chassis mounting points, using rubber or urethane, in order to reduce engine vibrations from getting transmitted into the chassis and body. Both rubber and urethane are electrical insulators as well, and serve to isolate the engine from the body, electrically. If only the engine is grounded to the battery, that means that all of the other non-engine-mounted electrical devices in the car have to derive one side of their circuits (the ground) through any (limited) engine-to-body/chassis metallic connections. Other than perhaps the shift linkage, the other metallic parts that might make significant electrically-conductive connections between engine and body/chassis would be stuff like the clutch or tach cables. Since the conductive connections through those pathways is nothing close to that of a solid battery-to-body ground cable, it's not at all weird that you'd end up with a prime electrical pathway through each of those cables and have them heat up as a result. Although you might be able to get by running some light electrical loads in this configuration, turning on things like headlights or the blower motor, or worse -- multiple devices, can start to heat things up quite a lot since those parts are pretty flimsy compared with a big battery-to-body ground cable. If you try to pull too much electrical current though an inadequate electrical pathway, you get a lot of resistance to the electron flow and the result is HEAT, similarly to trying running a 1500-watt hair dryer through a small 22-gauge wire.
> Hopefully those parts you identified in the video are the only casualties. However, it might be prudent to also look over the other wiring in the car to make sure that you don't have some cables with melted or burnt insulation.
> Good luck,
> Richard
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Chas" wrote:
> > Hi Mark,
> > This is classic. If the engine has a bad grund cable, the engine will try to ground itself through the metal cables, which causes extreme heat and meltdown. Replace the intended ground and lose the unintended ones!
> > Chas
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > > My N600 melts down. I don't quite understand it all yet. I replaced the alternator brushes and thought I had repaired the charging system. A couple of days go by, I get in to drive home from work and "???!". I need to vent and cool off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPVM-0BzRsg
> > > Mark
> > > Portland Or.
> > > www.mphspecialties.com

[dwb_07]

When I converted my N600 to fuel injection I found the the engine to not only be isolated from the body but also from itself. Unlike an early American car where any part of the motor will function as a ground. I ended up running #2 wire from (-) terminal to the body, separate #6 grounds from the body to the engine factory ground location and #6 wire from the (-) terminal to the cylinder barrel. With all these grounds my signals for the ECU were cleaned up.

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> Thanks for all your responses fellas. Yes I do believe it's a body ground issue. I'd forgotten, that about a month ago or more I repaired a sagging rear motor mount. The metal innards of the mount was resting on in the metal outer parts, causing the engine to sag and gear shift to hang low through the fire wall hole. I raised and filled the mount with new rubber. Effectively insulating the engine from the body. Then after replacing the brushes and getting the charge system working created the perfect storm melt down. All the cables are being rebuilt. Speedo, clutch, and throttle. One dash light wire melted and some charging wires also got melted. I'll be putting engine to body ground straps on every thing I own from now on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPVM-0BzRsg
> Mark
> Portland Or.
> www.mphspecialties.com
> Actually as I think about it some more, I suspect that the rest of the car wiring should probably be okay. Just add a battery ground to the body (along with the mechanical cables that got toasted) and you should be alright, I think. It's probably worth verifying that components like the voltage regulator didn't get damaged by the incident.
> Richard
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "richmccolman" wrote:
> > Chas is right. There's a reason why a car needs to be grounded from the battery to BOTH the engine AND the body/chassis. You can't count on having a solid ground between the battery and the body without a separate battery-to-body ground cable.
> > If the engine were solidly mounted metal-to-metal to the chassis/body, a separate battery-to-body grounding cable wouldn't be necessary. However, remember that great care is taken to mechanically dampen the engine-to-chassis mounting points, using rubber or urethane, in order to reduce engine vibrations from getting transmitted into the chassis and body. Both rubber and urethane are electrical insulators as well, and serve to isolate the engine from the body, electrically. If only the engine is grounded to the battery, that means that all of the other non-engine-mounted electrical devices in the car have to derive one side of their circuits (the ground) through any (limited) engine-to-body/chassis metallic connections. Other than perhaps the shift linkage, the other metallic parts that might make significant electrically-conductive connections between engine and body/chassis would be stuff like the clutch or tach cables. Since the conductive connections through those pathways is nothing close to that of a solid battery-to-body ground cable, it's not at all weird that you'd end up with a prime electrical pathway through each of those cables and have them heat up as a result. Although you might be able to get by running some light electrical loads in this configuration, turning on things like headlights or the blower motor, or worse -- multiple devices, can start to heat things up quite a lot since those parts are pretty flimsy compared with a big battery-to-body ground cable. If you try to pull too much electrical current though an inadequate electrical pathway, you get a lot of resistance to the electron flow and the result is HEAT, similarly to trying running a 1500-watt hair dryer through a small 22-gauge wire.
> > Hopefully those parts you identified in the video are the only casualties. However, it might be prudent to also look over the other wiring in the car to make sure that you don't have some cables with melted or burnt insulation.
> > Good luck,
> > Richard
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Chas" wrote:
> > > Hi Mark,
> > > This is classic. If the engine has a bad grund cable, the engine will try to ground itself through the metal cables, which causes extreme heat and meltdown. Replace the intended ground and lose the unintended ones!
> > > Chas
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > > > My N600 melts down. I don't quite understand it all yet. I replaced the alternator brushes and thought I had repaired the charging system. A couple of days go by, I get in to drive home from work and "???!". I need to vent and cool off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPVM-0BzRsg
> > > > Mark
> > > > Portland Or.
> > > > www.mphspecialties.com

[richmccolman]

Sounds like you've got a handle on things now, Mark.
Hmm... I guess that my initial concerns (about the possibility of melted wires) was more on the mark than my rethink.
Good luck getting everything put back together!
Richard

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> Thanks for all your responses fellas. Yes I do believe it's a body ground issue. I'd forgotten, that about a month ago or more I repaired a sagging rear motor mount. The metal innards of the mount was resting on in the metal outer parts, causing the engine to sag and gear shift to hang low through the fire wall hole. I raised and filled the mount with new rubber. Effectively insulating the engine from the body. Then after replacing the brushes and getting the charge system working created the perfect storm melt down. All the cables are being rebuilt. Speedo, clutch, and throttle. One dash light wire melted and some charging wires also got melted. I'll be putting engine to body ground straps on every thing I own from now on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPVM-0BzRsg
> Mark
> Portland Or.
> www.mphspecialties.com
> Actually as I think about it some more, I suspect that the rest of the car wiring should probably be okay. Just add a battery ground to the body (along with the mechanical cables that got toasted) and you should be alright, I think. It's probably worth verifying that components like the voltage regulator didn't get damaged by the incident.
> Richard
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "richmccolman" wrote:
> > Chas is right. There's a reason why a car needs to be grounded from the battery to BOTH the engine AND the body/chassis. You can't count on having a solid ground between the battery and the body without a separate battery-to-body ground cable.
> > If the engine were solidly mounted metal-to-metal to the chassis/body, a separate battery-to-body grounding cable wouldn't be necessary. However, remember that great care is taken to mechanically dampen the engine-to-chassis mounting points, using rubber or urethane, in order to reduce engine vibrations from getting transmitted into the chassis and body. Both rubber and urethane are electrical insulators as well, and serve to isolate the engine from the body, electrically. If only the engine is grounded to the battery, that means that all of the other non-engine-mounted electrical devices in the car have to derive one side of their circuits (the ground) through any (limited) engine-to-body/chassis metallic connections. Other than perhaps the shift linkage, the other metallic parts that might make significant electrically-conductive connections between engine and body/chassis would be stuff like the clutch or tach cables. Since the conductive connections through those pathways is nothing close to that of a solid battery-to-body ground cable, it's not at all weird that you'd end up with a prime electrical pathway through each of those cables and have them heat up as a result. Although you might be able to get by running some light electrical loads in this configuration, turning on things like headlights or the blower motor, or worse -- multiple devices, can start to heat things up quite a lot since those parts are pretty flimsy compared with a big battery-to-body ground cable. If you try to pull too much electrical current though an inadequate electrical pathway, you get a lot of resistance to the electron flow and the result is HEAT, similarly to trying running a 1500-watt hair dryer through a small 22-gauge wire.
> > Hopefully those parts you identified in the video are the only casualties. However, it might be prudent to also look over the other wiring in the car to make sure that you don't have some cables with melted or burnt insulation.
> > Good luck,
> > Richard
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Chas" wrote:
> > > Hi Mark,
> > > This is classic. If the engine has a bad grund cable, the engine will try to ground itself through the metal cables, which causes extreme heat and meltdown. Replace the intended ground and lose the unintended ones!
> > > Chas
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > > > My N600 melts down. I don't quite understand it all yet. I replaced the alternator brushes and thought I had repaired the charging system. A couple of days go by, I get in to drive home from work and "???!". I need to vent and cool off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPVM-0BzRsg
> > > > Mark
> > > > Portland Or.
> > > > www.mphspecialties.com

[Harry Connors]

How did you convert your engine to fuel injection? Is there a kit or instructions for it. I would love to convert to fuel injection. Does it use it from a motorcycle engine? Thanks Harry

On Jul 13, 2013, at 8:02 AM, dwb_07 wrote:
> When I converted my N600 to fuel injection I found the the engine to not only be isolated from the body but also from itself. Unlike an early American car where any part of the motor will function as a ground. I ended up running #2 wire from (-) terminal to the body, separate #6 grounds from the body to the engine factory ground location and #6 wire from the (-) terminal to the cylinder barrel. With all these grounds my signals for the ECU were cleaned up.
> --- In
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> , Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > Thanks for all your responses fellas. Yes I do believe it's a body ground issue. I'd forgotten, that about a month ago or more I repaired a sagging rear motor mount. The metal innards of the mount was resting on in the metal outer parts, causing the engine to sag and gear shift to hang low through the fire wall hole. I raised and filled the mount with new rubber. Effectively insulating the engine from the body. Then after replacing the brushes and getting the charge system working created the perfect storm melt down. All the cables are being rebuilt. Speedo, clutch, and throttle. One dash light wire melted and some charging wires also got melted. I'll be putting engine to body ground straps on every thing I own from now on.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPVM-0BzRsg
> > Mark
> > Portland Or.
> www.mphspecialties.com
> > Actually as I think about it some more, I suspect that the rest of the car wiring should probably be okay. Just add a battery ground to the body (along with the mechanical cables that got toasted) and you should be alright, I think. It's probably worth verifying that components like the voltage regulator didn't get damaged by the incident.
> > Richard
> > --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> , "richmccolman" wrote:
> > > Chas is right. There's a reason why a car needs to be grounded from the battery to BOTH the engine AND the body/chassis. You can't count on having a solid ground between the battery and the body without a separate battery-to-body ground cable.
> > > If the engine were solidly mounted metal-to-metal to the chassis/body, a separate battery-to-body grounding cable wouldn't be necessary. However, remember that great care is taken to mechanically dampen the engine-to-chassis mounting points, using rubber or urethane, in order to reduce engine vibrations from getting transmitted into the chassis and body. Both rubber and urethane are electrical insulators as well, and serve to isolate the engine from the body, electrically. If only the engine is grounded to the battery, that means that all of the other non-engine-mounted electrical devices in the car have to derive one side of their circuits (the ground) through any (limited) engine-to-body/chassis metallic connections. Other than perhaps the shift linkage, the other metallic parts that might make significant electrically-conductive connections between engine and body/chassis would be stuff like the clutch or tach cables. Since the conductive connections through those pathways is nothing close to that of a solid battery-to-body ground cable, it's not at all weird that you'd end up with a prime electrical pathway through each of those cables and have them heat up as a result. Although you might be able to get by running some light electrical loads in this configuration, turning on things like headlights or the blower motor, or worse -- multiple devices, can start to heat things up quite a lot since those parts are pretty flimsy compared with a big battery-to-body ground cable. If you try to pull too much electrical current though an inadequate electrical pathway, you get a lot of resistance to the electron flow and the result is HEAT, similarly to trying running a 1500-watt hair dryer through a small 22-gauge wire.
> > > Hopefully those parts you identified in the video are the only casualties. However, it might be prudent to also look over the other wiring in the car to make sure that you don't have some cables with melted or burnt insulation.
> > > Good luck,
> > > Richard
> > > --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> , "Chas" wrote:
> > > > Hi Mark,
> > > > This is classic. If the engine has a bad grund cable, the engine will try to ground itself through the metal cables, which causes extreme heat and meltdown. Replace the intended ground and lose the unintended ones!
> > > > Chas
> > > > --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> , Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > > > > My N600 melts down. I don't quite understand it all yet. I replaced the alternator brushes and thought I had repaired the charging system. A couple of days go by, I get in to drive home from work and "???!". I need to vent and cool off.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPVM-0BzRsg
> > > > > Mark
> > > > > Portland Or.
> www.mphspecialties.com