Cam Chain guide - go without it?

Eric Geiger · Post by **Eric Geiger** » Sat May 11, 2013 9:37 am

Mike if your compression is only 90 you have some issues mine reads at like 150-160 on a fresh rebuild. Are your valves adjusted properly?
Eric J. Geiger
---------------------------------------
PRG Nocturne
XXX-XXX-XXXX phone
XXX-XXX-XXXX fax
XXX-XXX-XXXX mobile
egeiger@...
www.prgnocturne.com

On May 11, 2013, at 12:28 PM, "Mike" wrote:
I replaced the chain not long ago, I just now retarded the cam chain timing by moving the chain by one tooth. It runs, but sounds kind of funny and it still backfires into the intake and out the carb.
Is it possible there is something wrong with one of my intake valves? I also cleaned and surfaced my valves when I rebuilt the engine. A few months ago, I rented a pressure gauge and I think I got something like 90 psi on each cylinder. I forget what the number was, I just know that it was exactly the same on each, which is what I was looking for.
I'll see if I can maybe get a couple decent pictures of my timing with my camera. I don't have a garage, so my car is outside.
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> Mike Now, I'm actually not sure if the slipper guide is in there, I looked but couldn't see it. The prior owner says it is in there, it's just too deep and far down to see. My chain does not touch the cylinder or shave any aluminum. If you are backfiring at all you are a tooth off. The crank TDC pulley notch MUST be at the "T", it is possible you have the pulley on wrong giving a false reading. The cam sprocket line must be perfectly horizontal with the cam notch showing perfectly centered in the drivers side cam bearing. You can test a timing chain by rocking TDC. If you can move the crank from "T" to "F" with out moving the cam your chain or tensioner is bad. Mark
www.mphspecialties.com
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> From: megamike78@...
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 18:05:08 +0000
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> Mark,
> I watched your video of you hitting over 7000 rpm. Was that done without the slipper/guide? That's pretty impressive.
> If you do take it apart, will you please let me know how it looks inside? What I'm interested in is whether your chain is rubbing on the block and scraping off aluminum since you don't have the guide.
> Also, I was wondering if I might be off by a tooth. However, if I move the chain by a tooth, then the level line on my chain will no longer be level at the TDC. How about if I retard the timing by a single tooth just to see if it fixes my problem. That won't hurt anything will it?
> thanks,
> Mike.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > If it helps, my Blue coupe does not have the black plastic chain guide at all. I just put a new HD cam chain in without it and it runs great. I didn't know at the the time it was even missing. Now I'm thinking about tearing it back apart to put a new guide (slipper) in, but I can't find a replacement anywhere. If yours is backfiring, you are off a tooth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2anDmZjtF8
www.mphspecialties.com
> > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > From: megamike78@
> > Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 00:41:27 +0000
> > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > Thanks Bill, I think I know exactly what I need to do.
> > My chain does rub against the slipper. When I rebuilt the engine, the pin holders in the block were worn away. I had a welder build up aluminum in those spots and then I used a dremmel tool to cut new pin holder slots for the slipper to sit on. However, I don't think I cut those spots where they should have been and the slipper pushes very slightly on the chain. I think this causes a slight advance in the valve timing, which causes the intake valve to open just as the spark plug fires on the end of the exhaust stroke(due to the design of the engine).
> > I'll have to push back those pin slots so the slipper sit farther away from the chain.
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Bill" wrote:
> > > Hi Mike;
> > > Yes, it sounds like timing. And, if your slipper is touching your cam
> > > chain, then its not sitting properly. A tight cam chain shouldn't be
> > > rubbing against the slipper. Maybe you forgot the pin in the bottom of the
> > > slipper, there are two pins holding it in place or maybe it slipped out.
> > > But you do need it. If it wasn't there the cam chain would eat away at the
> > > aluminum and cause metal chips to fall into the crank case. The metal chips
> > > will eventually flow into the bearing cages on your crankshaft and then over
> > > time will eat the bearing cages to a point that a rod will start knocking.
> > > Or before that happens chips will get into the bearings on the transmission
> > > counter shaft causing it to fail. It's not hard to fix the pins if the seat
> > > in the cylinder barrels has warn. Use JB Weld and make them permeant Oh if
> > > there is a failure in the slipper, you can remove the JB Weld and put in
> > > new pins and slipper a whole bunch easier.
> > > If I can suggest it, look at the file on the yahoo group site "Changing out
> > > your Cam Chain" It will give some trouble shooting guides and get your car
> > > timing back.
> > > Bill
> > > _____
> > > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
] On Behalf Of Mike
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 3:20 PM
> > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > Yes, I actually meant the slipper. I forgot it was called that.
> > > My engine has been backfiring into the intake manifold. It's like the intake
> > > valve is opening too soon or something. The problem becomes less severe if I
> > > significantly advance the timing, but still happens.
> > > It's very frustrating. I set the valve timeing using the line on the
> > > camshaft, and it looks pretty good. It's definitely not off by a full tooth.
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > , "Bill" wrote:
> > > > Hi Mike
> > > > Are you talking about the slipper?
> > > > Bill
> > > > _____
> > > > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > ] On Behalf Of Mike
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 2:53 PM
> > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > > Hi guys,
> > > > Has anyone ever put there engine back together WITHOUT that long skinny
> > > > crumbly plastic coated cam chain guide? I mean, how much of a guide is it?
> > > > Will the chain come off track with out it? It seems like there is already
> > > > enough stuff holding the cam chain in place.
> > > > What do you guys think?
> > > > the reason I ask is because I think my chain guide is pushing on my chain
> > > > too much and causing a slight advance in the valve timing. It pushes a
> > > > little more on the chain after I rebuilt the engine and rebuilt the
> > > holders
> > > > for the chain guide.
> > > > thanks,
> > > > Mike.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Sat May 11, 2013 9:59 am

I have adjusted the valves to. I think I used the 0.008" feeler gauge. That may be a little on the big side, but better than too small.
I think I'll try the compression test again. I can't remember if I held the carb open while testing it or not. It was a little while ago when I checked it.
So, I should expect at least 150 psi with properly seated valves and new piston rings, right??
-Mike.

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Eric Geiger wrote:
> Mike if your compression is only 90 you have some issues mine reads at like 150-160 on a fresh rebuild. Are your valves adjusted properly?
> Eric J. Geiger
> ---------------------------------------
> PRG Nocturne
> XXX-XXX-XXXX phone
> XXX-XXX-XXXX fax
> XXX-XXX-XXXX mobile
> egeiger@...
> www.prgnocturne.com On May 11, 2013, at 12:28 PM, "Mike" > wrote:
> I replaced the chain not long ago, I just now retarded the cam chain timing by moving the chain by one tooth. It runs, but sounds kind of funny and it still backfires into the intake and out the carb.
> Is it possible there is something wrong with one of my intake valves? I also cleaned and surfaced my valves when I rebuilt the engine. A few months ago, I rented a pressure gauge and I think I got something like 90 psi on each cylinder. I forget what the number was, I just know that it was exactly the same on each, which is what I was looking for.
> I'll see if I can maybe get a couple decent pictures of my timing with my camera. I don't have a garage, so my car is outside.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > Mike Now, I'm actually not sure if the slipper guide is in there, I looked but couldn't see it. The prior owner says it is in there, it's just too deep and far down to see. My chain does not touch the cylinder or shave any aluminum. If you are backfiring at all you are a tooth off. The crank TDC pulley notch MUST be at the "T", it is possible you have the pulley on wrong giving a false reading. The cam sprocket line must be perfectly horizontal with the cam notch showing perfectly centered in the drivers side cam bearing. You can test a timing chain by rocking TDC. If you can move the crank from "T" to "F" with out moving the cam your chain or tensioner is bad. Mark
> > www.mphspecialties.com > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com

> > From: megamike78@
> > Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 18:05:08 +0000
> > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > Mark,
> > I watched your video of you hitting over 7000 rpm. Was that done without the slipper/guide? That's pretty impressive.
> > If you do take it apart, will you please let me know how it looks inside? What I'm interested in is whether your chain is rubbing on the block and scraping off aluminum since you don't have the guide.
> > Also, I was wondering if I might be off by a tooth. However, if I move the chain by a tooth, then the level line on my chain will no longer be level at the TDC. How about if I retard the timing by a single tooth just to see if it fixes my problem. That won't hurt anything will it?
> > thanks,
> > Mike.
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > > If it helps, my Blue coupe does not have the black plastic chain guide at all. I just put a new HD cam chain in without it and it runs great. I didn't know at the the time it was even missing. Now I'm thinking about tearing it back apart to put a new guide (slipper) in, but I can't find a replacement anywhere. If yours is backfiring, you are off a tooth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2anDmZjtF8
> > > www.mphspecialties.com > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com

> > > From: megamike78@
> > > Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 00:41:27 +0000
> > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > Thanks Bill, I think I know exactly what I need to do.
> > > My chain does rub against the slipper. When I rebuilt the engine, the pin holders in the block were worn away. I had a welder build up aluminum in those spots and then I used a dremmel tool to cut new pin holder slots for the slipper to sit on. However, I don't think I cut those spots where they should have been and the slipper pushes very slightly on the chain. I think this causes a slight advance in the valve timing, which causes the intake valve to open just as the spark plug fires on the end of the exhaust stroke(due to the design of the engine).
> > > I'll have to push back those pin slots so the slipper sit farther away from the chain.
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Bill" wrote:
> > > > Hi Mike;
> > > > Yes, it sounds like timing. And, if your slipper is touching your cam
> > > > chain, then its not sitting properly. A tight cam chain shouldn't be
> > > > rubbing against the slipper. Maybe you forgot the pin in the bottom of the
> > > > slipper, there are two pins holding it in place or maybe it slipped out.
> > > > But you do need it. If it wasn't there the cam chain would eat away at the
> > > > aluminum and cause metal chips to fall into the crank case. The metal chips
> > > > will eventually flow into the bearing cages on your crankshaft and then over
> > > > time will eat the bearing cages to a point that a rod will start knocking.
> > > > Or before that happens chips will get into the bearings on the transmission
> > > > counter shaft causing it to fail. It's not hard to fix the pins if the seat
> > > > in the cylinder barrels has warn. Use JB Weld and make them permeant Oh if
> > > > there is a failure in the slipper, you can remove the JB Weld and put in
> > > > new pins and slipper a whole bunch easier.
> > > > If I can suggest it, look at the file on the yahoo group site "Changing out
> > > > your Cam Chain" It will give some trouble shooting guides and get your car
> > > > timing back.
> > > > Bill
> > > > _____
> > > > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com

> > > > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
] On Behalf Of Mike
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 3:20 PM
> > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com

> > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > > Yes, I actually meant the slipper. I forgot it was called that.
> > > > My engine has been backfiring into the intake manifold. It's like the intake
> > > > valve is opening too soon or something. The problem becomes less severe if I
> > > > significantly advance the timing, but still happens.
> > > > It's very frustrating. I set the valve timeing using the line on the
> > > > camshaft, and it looks pretty good. It's definitely not off by a full tooth.
> > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com

> > > > > , "Bill" wrote:
> > > > > Hi Mike
> > > > > Are you talking about the slipper?
> > > > > Bill
> > > > > _____
> > > > > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com

> > > > > > > > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com

> > > > > ] On Behalf Of Mike
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 2:53 PM
> > > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com

> > > > > > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > > > Hi guys,
> > > > > Has anyone ever put there engine back together WITHOUT that long skinny
> > > > > crumbly plastic coated cam chain guide? I mean, how much of a guide is it?
> > > > > Will the chain come off track with out it? It seems like there is already
> > > > > enough stuff holding the cam chain in place.
> > > > > What do you guys think?
> > > > > the reason I ask is because I think my chain guide is pushing on my chain
> > > > > too much and causing a slight advance in the valve timing. It pushes a
> > > > > little more on the chain after I rebuilt the engine and rebuilt the
> > > > holders
> > > > > for the chain guide.
> > > > > thanks,
> > > > > Mike.

Eric Geiger · Post by **Eric Geiger** » Sat May 11, 2013 10:16 am

I want to say 165 is what it says in the book, I think ive read also other members stating as long as they are balanced and over 150 you should be ok. Don't quote me on that though.
When I did mine I made sure the engine was warm first by running it for a minute. If yours doesn't run though that's not really possible. I also put a squirt of oil in the cylinder. Make sure u hold the gas pedal down so the throttle is wide open. Also make sure that the other cylinder doesn't have a plug in it so theres no resistance from compression on the opposite cylinder you're testing.
Eric J. Geiger
---------------------------------------
PRG Nocturne
XXX-XXX-XXXX phone
XXX-XXX-XXXX fax
XXX-XXX-XXXX mobile
egeiger@...
www.prgnocturne.com

On May 11, 2013, at 12:59 PM, "Mike" wrote:
I have adjusted the valves to. I think I used the 0.008" feeler gauge. That may be a little on the big side, but better than too small.
I think I'll try the compression test again. I can't remember if I held the carb open while testing it or not. It was a little while ago when I checked it.
So, I should expect at least 150 psi with properly seated valves and new piston rings, right??
-Mike.
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Eric Geiger wrote:
> Mike if your compression is only 90 you have some issues mine reads at like 150-160 on a fresh rebuild. Are your valves adjusted properly?
> Eric J. Geiger
> ---------------------------------------
> PRG Nocturne
> XXX-XXX-XXXX phone
> XXX-XXX-XXXX fax
> XXX-XXX-XXXX mobile
> egeiger@...
www.prgnocturne.com
On May 11, 2013, at 12:28 PM, "Mike" > wrote:
> I replaced the chain not long ago, I just now retarded the cam chain timing by moving the chain by one tooth. It runs, but sounds kind of funny and it still backfires into the intake and out the carb.
> Is it possible there is something wrong with one of my intake valves? I also cleaned and surfaced my valves when I rebuilt the engine. A few months ago, I rented a pressure gauge and I think I got something like 90 psi on each cylinder. I forget what the number was, I just know that it was exactly the same on each, which is what I was looking for.
> I'll see if I can maybe get a couple decent pictures of my timing with my camera. I don't have a garage, so my car is outside.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > Mike Now, I'm actually not sure if the slipper guide is in there, I looked but couldn't see it. The prior owner says it is in there, it's just too deep and far down to see. My chain does not touch the cylinder or shave any aluminum. If you are backfiring at all you are a tooth off. The crank TDC pulley notch MUST be at the "T", it is possible you have the pulley on wrong giving a false reading. The cam sprocket line must be perfectly horizontal with the cam notch showing perfectly centered in the drivers side cam bearing. You can test a timing chain by rocking TDC. If you can move the crank from "T" to "F" with out moving the cam your chain or tensioner is bad. Mark
www.mphspecialties.com
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> From: megamike78@
> > Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 18:05:08 +0000
> > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > Mark,
> > I watched your video of you hitting over 7000 rpm. Was that done without the slipper/guide? That's pretty impressive.
> > If you do take it apart, will you please let me know how it looks inside? What I'm interested in is whether your chain is rubbing on the block and scraping off aluminum since you don't have the guide.
> > Also, I was wondering if I might be off by a tooth. However, if I move the chain by a tooth, then the level line on my chain will no longer be level at the TDC. How about if I retard the timing by a single tooth just to see if it fixes my problem. That won't hurt anything will it?
> > thanks,
> > Mike.
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > > If it helps, my Blue coupe does not have the black plastic chain guide at all. I just put a new HD cam chain in without it and it runs great. I didn't know at the the time it was even missing. Now I'm thinking about tearing it back apart to put a new guide (slipper) in, but I can't find a replacement anywhere. If yours is backfiring, you are off a tooth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2anDmZjtF8
www.mphspecialties.com
> > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > From: megamike78@
> > > Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 00:41:27 +0000
> > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > Thanks Bill, I think I know exactly what I need to do.
> > > My chain does rub against the slipper. When I rebuilt the engine, the pin holders in the block were worn away. I had a welder build up aluminum in those spots and then I used a dremmel tool to cut new pin holder slots for the slipper to sit on. However, I don't think I cut those spots where they should have been and the slipper pushes very slightly on the chain. I think this causes a slight advance in the valve timing, which causes the intake valve to open just as the spark plug fires on the end of the exhaust stroke(due to the design of the engine).
> > > I'll have to push back those pin slots so the slipper sit farther away from the chain.
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Bill" wrote:
> > > > Hi Mike;
> > > > Yes, it sounds like timing. And, if your slipper is touching your cam
> > > > chain, then its not sitting properly. A tight cam chain shouldn't be
> > > > rubbing against the slipper. Maybe you forgot the pin in the bottom of the
> > > > slipper, there are two pins holding it in place or maybe it slipped out.
> > > > But you do need it. If it wasn't there the cam chain would eat away at the
> > > > aluminum and cause metal chips to fall into the crank case. The metal chips
> > > > will eventually flow into the bearing cages on your crankshaft and then over
> > > > time will eat the bearing cages to a point that a rod will start knocking.
> > > > Or before that happens chips will get into the bearings on the transmission
> > > > counter shaft causing it to fail. It's not hard to fix the pins if the seat
> > > > in the cylinder barrels has warn. Use JB Weld and make them permeant Oh if
> > > > there is a failure in the slipper, you can remove the JB Weld and put in
> > > > new pins and slipper a whole bunch easier.
> > > > If I can suggest it, look at the file on the yahoo group site "Changing out
> > > > your Cam Chain" It will give some trouble shooting guides and get your car
> > > > timing back.
> > > > Bill
> > > > _____
> > > > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
] On Behalf Of Mike
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 3:20 PM
> > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > > Yes, I actually meant the slipper. I forgot it was called that.
> > > > My engine has been backfiring into the intake manifold. It's like the intake
> > > > valve is opening too soon or something. The problem becomes less severe if I
> > > > significantly advance the timing, but still happens.
> > > > It's very frustrating. I set the valve timeing using the line on the
> > > > camshaft, and it looks pretty good. It's definitely not off by a full tooth.
> > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > , "Bill" wrote:
> > > > > Hi Mike
> > > > > Are you talking about the slipper?
> > > > > Bill
> > > > > _____
> > > > > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > ] On Behalf Of Mike
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 2:53 PM
> > > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > > > Hi guys,
> > > > > Has anyone ever put there engine back together WITHOUT that long skinny
> > > > > crumbly plastic coated cam chain guide? I mean, how much of a guide is it?
> > > > > Will the chain come off track with out it? It seems like there is already
> > > > > enough stuff holding the cam chain in place.
> > > > > What do you guys think?
> > > > > the reason I ask is because I think my chain guide is pushing on my chain
> > > > > too much and causing a slight advance in the valve timing. It pushes a
> > > > > little more on the chain after I rebuilt the engine and rebuilt the
> > > > holders
> > > > > for the chain guide.
> > > > > thanks,
> > > > > Mike.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Sat May 11, 2013 12:19 pm

It runs, just not well - especially with the occasional backfiring. I'll do just like you said and see what I get for compression.

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Eric Geiger wrote:
> I want to say 165 is what it says in the book, I think ive read also other members stating as long as they are balanced and over 150 you should be ok. Don't quote me on that though.
> When I did mine I made sure the engine was warm first by running it for a minute. If yours doesn't run though that's not really possible. I also put a squirt of oil in the cylinder. Make sure u hold the gas pedal down so the throttle is wide open. Also make sure that the other cylinder doesn't have a plug in it so theres no resistance from compression on the opposite cylinder you're testing.
> Eric J. Geiger
> ---------------------------------------
> PRG Nocturne
> XXX-XXX-XXXX phone
> XXX-XXX-XXXX fax
> XXX-XXX-XXXX mobile
> egeiger@...
> www.prgnocturne.com On May 11, 2013, at 12:59 PM, "Mike" > wrote:
> I have adjusted the valves to. I think I used the 0.008" feeler gauge. That may be a little on the big side, but better than too small.
> I think I'll try the compression test again. I can't remember if I held the carb open while testing it or not. It was a little while ago when I checked it.
> So, I should expect at least 150 psi with properly seated valves and new piston rings, right??
> -Mike.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Eric Geiger wrote:
> > Mike if your compression is only 90 you have some issues mine reads at like 150-160 on a fresh rebuild. Are your valves adjusted properly?
> > Eric J. Geiger
> > ---------------------------------------
> > PRG Nocturne
> > XXX-XXX-XXXX phone
> > XXX-XXX-XXXX fax
> > XXX-XXX-XXXX mobile
> > egeiger@
> > www.prgnocturne.com > On May 11, 2013, at 12:28 PM, "Mike" > wrote:
> > I replaced the chain not long ago, I just now retarded the cam chain timing by moving the chain by one tooth. It runs, but sounds kind of funny and it still backfires into the intake and out the carb.
> > Is it possible there is something wrong with one of my intake valves? I also cleaned and surfaced my valves when I rebuilt the engine. A few months ago, I rented a pressure gauge and I think I got something like 90 psi on each cylinder. I forget what the number was, I just know that it was exactly the same on each, which is what I was looking for.
> > I'll see if I can maybe get a couple decent pictures of my timing with my camera. I don't have a garage, so my car is outside.
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > > Mike Now, I'm actually not sure if the slipper guide is in there, I looked but couldn't see it. The prior owner says it is in there, it's just too deep and far down to see. My chain does not touch the cylinder or shave any aluminum. If you are backfiring at all you are a tooth off. The crank TDC pulley notch MUST be at the "T", it is possible you have the pulley on wrong giving a false reading. The cam sprocket line must be perfectly horizontal with the cam notch showing perfectly centered in the drivers side cam bearing. You can test a timing chain by rocking TDC. If you can move the crank from "T" to "F" with out moving the cam your chain or tensioner is bad. Mark
> > > www.mphspecialties.com > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > From: megamike78@
> > > Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 18:05:08 +0000
> > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > Mark,
> > > I watched your video of you hitting over 7000 rpm. Was that done without the slipper/guide? That's pretty impressive.
> > > If you do take it apart, will you please let me know how it looks inside? What I'm interested in is whether your chain is rubbing on the block and scraping off aluminum since you don't have the guide.
> > > Also, I was wondering if I might be off by a tooth. However, if I move the chain by a tooth, then the level line on my chain will no longer be level at the TDC. How about if I retard the timing by a single tooth just to see if it fixes my problem. That won't hurt anything will it?
> > > thanks,
> > > Mike.
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > > > If it helps, my Blue coupe does not have the black plastic chain guide at all. I just put a new HD cam chain in without it and it runs great. I didn't know at the the time it was even missing. Now I'm thinking about tearing it back apart to put a new guide (slipper) in, but I can't find a replacement anywhere. If yours is backfiring, you are off a tooth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2anDmZjtF8
> > > > www.mphspecialties.com > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > From: megamike78@
> > > > Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 00:41:27 +0000
> > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > > Thanks Bill, I think I know exactly what I need to do.
> > > > My chain does rub against the slipper. When I rebuilt the engine, the pin holders in the block were worn away. I had a welder build up aluminum in those spots and then I used a dremmel tool to cut new pin holder slots for the slipper to sit on. However, I don't think I cut those spots where they should have been and the slipper pushes very slightly on the chain. I think this causes a slight advance in the valve timing, which causes the intake valve to open just as the spark plug fires on the end of the exhaust stroke(due to the design of the engine).
> > > > I'll have to push back those pin slots so the slipper sit farther away from the chain.
> > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>, "Bill" wrote:
> > > > > Hi Mike;
> > > > > Yes, it sounds like timing. And, if your slipper is touching your cam
> > > > > chain, then its not sitting properly. A tight cam chain shouldn't be
> > > > > rubbing against the slipper. Maybe you forgot the pin in the bottom of the
> > > > > slipper, there are two pins holding it in place or maybe it slipped out.
> > > > > But you do need it. If it wasn't there the cam chain would eat away at the
> > > > > aluminum and cause metal chips to fall into the crank case. The metal chips
> > > > > will eventually flow into the bearing cages on your crankshaft and then over
> > > > > time will eat the bearing cages to a point that a rod will start knocking.
> > > > > Or before that happens chips will get into the bearings on the transmission
> > > > > counter shaft causing it to fail. It's not hard to fix the pins if the seat
> > > > > in the cylinder barrels has warn. Use JB Weld and make them permeant Oh if
> > > > > there is a failure in the slipper, you can remove the JB Weld and put in
> > > > > new pins and slipper a whole bunch easier.
> > > > > If I can suggest it, look at the file on the yahoo group site "Changing out
> > > > > your Cam Chain" It will give some trouble shooting guides and get your car
> > > > > timing back.
> > > > > Bill
> > > > > _____
> > > > > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>] On Behalf Of Mike
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 3:20 PM
> > > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > > > Yes, I actually meant the slipper. I forgot it was called that.
> > > > > My engine has been backfiring into the intake manifold. It's like the intake
> > > > > valve is opening too soon or something. The problem becomes less severe if I
> > > > > significantly advance the timing, but still happens.
> > > > > It's very frustrating. I set the valve timeing using the line on the
> > > > > camshaft, and it looks pretty good. It's definitely not off by a full tooth.
> > > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > , "Bill" wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Mike
> > > > > > Are you talking about the slipper?
> > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > _____
> > > > > > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > ] On Behalf Of Mike
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 2:53 PM
> > > > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > > > > Hi guys,
> > > > > > Has anyone ever put there engine back together WITHOUT that long skinny
> > > > > > crumbly plastic coated cam chain guide? I mean, how much of a guide is it?
> > > > > > Will the chain come off track with out it? It seems like there is already
> > > > > > enough stuff holding the cam chain in place.
> > > > > > What do you guys think?
> > > > > > the reason I ask is because I think my chain guide is pushing on my chain
> > > > > > too much and causing a slight advance in the valve timing. It pushes a
> > > > > > little more on the chain after I rebuilt the engine and rebuilt the
> > > > > holders
> > > > > > for the chain guide.
> > > > > > thanks,
> > > > > > Mike.

Mark P Hatten · Post by **Mark P Hatten** » Sat May 11, 2013 12:20 pm

165 psi is correct. 90 psi is WAY too low! be sure the carb is fully open as it will make a 35psi difference in test pressure
www.mphspecialties.com
To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com

dealadayray · Post by **dealadayray** » Sat May 11, 2013 1:10 pm

Mike;
Every one on the group is giving you really good advise. The timing is a combined effort, the chain, the rockers, the points all has to be on the mark to make things run right. 8 thousands is too much, keep them at 3 thousands using two feeler gages, a .003 and a .004 using the .004 as a no go indicator. Meaning that a .003 will move freely under the rocker and a .004 will not. Then only torque to spec, Pages 36, 41, 42 of the Coupe shop manual will have everything you need. Then even after all the adjustments recheck. Then move to the points, remove the points breaker plate and check to see that it moves freely and doesn’t have side movement. (hold the dark plate and try moving the silver plate side to side) if it moves you will not have a good separation on your points or they may not open at all. This is also a cause of back firing. If the plates rotate freely and there is no side motion, the points are set properly at .015, (yes the book says .016 but the screws tend to pull the points slightly apart when tightening so I always use the .015 feeler gage. Then do a static timing (the 12v light bulb) works to get things started then use a timing light.
Mark said it right on the cylinder pressure, either the head gasket isn’t seating or the you have blow by on the rings giving such a low indication on the pressure test. As he suggested oil in the cylinders will give a ring or valve indication.
Bill

Chas · Post by **Chas** » Sat May 11, 2013 2:43 pm

The oil squirt is NOT a good idea as it seals the rings and increases the compression. Oil can even improve a poor compression reading. You shouls always test dry.
Chas

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Eric Geiger wrote:
> I want to say 165 is what it says in the book, I think ive read also other members stating as long as they are balanced and over 150 you should be ok. Don't quote me on that though.
> When I did mine I made sure the engine was warm first by running it for a minute. If yours doesn't run though that's not really possible. I also put a squirt of oil in the cylinder. Make sure u hold the gas pedal down so the throttle is wide open. Also make sure that the other cylinder doesn't have a plug in it so theres no resistance from compression on the opposite cylinder you're testing.
> Eric J. Geiger
> ---------------------------------------
> PRG Nocturne
> XXX-XXX-XXXX phone
> XXX-XXX-XXXX fax
> XXX-XXX-XXXX mobile
> egeiger@...
> www.prgnocturne.com On May 11, 2013, at 12:59 PM, "Mike" > wrote:
> I have adjusted the valves to. I think I used the 0.008" feeler gauge. That may be a little on the big side, but better than too small.
> I think I'll try the compression test again. I can't remember if I held the carb open while testing it or not. It was a little while ago when I checked it.
> So, I should expect at least 150 psi with properly seated valves and new piston rings, right??
> -Mike.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Eric Geiger wrote:
> > Mike if your compression is only 90 you have some issues mine reads at like 150-160 on a fresh rebuild. Are your valves adjusted properly?
> > Eric J. Geiger
> > ---------------------------------------
> > PRG Nocturne
> > XXX-XXX-XXXX phone
> > XXX-XXX-XXXX fax
> > XXX-XXX-XXXX mobile
> > egeiger@
> > www.prgnocturne.com > On May 11, 2013, at 12:28 PM, "Mike" > wrote:
> > I replaced the chain not long ago, I just now retarded the cam chain timing by moving the chain by one tooth. It runs, but sounds kind of funny and it still backfires into the intake and out the carb.
> > Is it possible there is something wrong with one of my intake valves? I also cleaned and surfaced my valves when I rebuilt the engine. A few months ago, I rented a pressure gauge and I think I got something like 90 psi on each cylinder. I forget what the number was, I just know that it was exactly the same on each, which is what I was looking for.
> > I'll see if I can maybe get a couple decent pictures of my timing with my camera. I don't have a garage, so my car is outside.
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > > Mike Now, I'm actually not sure if the slipper guide is in there, I looked but couldn't see it. The prior owner says it is in there, it's just too deep and far down to see. My chain does not touch the cylinder or shave any aluminum. If you are backfiring at all you are a tooth off. The crank TDC pulley notch MUST be at the "T", it is possible you have the pulley on wrong giving a false reading. The cam sprocket line must be perfectly horizontal with the cam notch showing perfectly centered in the drivers side cam bearing. You can test a timing chain by rocking TDC. If you can move the crank from "T" to "F" with out moving the cam your chain or tensioner is bad. Mark
> > > www.mphspecialties.com > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > From: megamike78@
> > > Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 18:05:08 +0000
> > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > Mark,
> > > I watched your video of you hitting over 7000 rpm. Was that done without the slipper/guide? That's pretty impressive.
> > > If you do take it apart, will you please let me know how it looks inside? What I'm interested in is whether your chain is rubbing on the block and scraping off aluminum since you don't have the guide.
> > > Also, I was wondering if I might be off by a tooth. However, if I move the chain by a tooth, then the level line on my chain will no longer be level at the TDC. How about if I retard the timing by a single tooth just to see if it fixes my problem. That won't hurt anything will it?
> > > thanks,
> > > Mike.
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>, Mark P Hatten wrote:
> > > > If it helps, my Blue coupe does not have the black plastic chain guide at all. I just put a new HD cam chain in without it and it runs great. I didn't know at the the time it was even missing. Now I'm thinking about tearing it back apart to put a new guide (slipper) in, but I can't find a replacement anywhere. If yours is backfiring, you are off a tooth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2anDmZjtF8
> > > > www.mphspecialties.com > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > From: megamike78@
> > > > Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 00:41:27 +0000
> > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > > Thanks Bill, I think I know exactly what I need to do.
> > > > My chain does rub against the slipper. When I rebuilt the engine, the pin holders in the block were worn away. I had a welder build up aluminum in those spots and then I used a dremmel tool to cut new pin holder slots for the slipper to sit on. However, I don't think I cut those spots where they should have been and the slipper pushes very slightly on the chain. I think this causes a slight advance in the valve timing, which causes the intake valve to open just as the spark plug fires on the end of the exhaust stroke(due to the design of the engine).
> > > > I'll have to push back those pin slots so the slipper sit farther away from the chain.
> > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>, "Bill" wrote:
> > > > > Hi Mike;
> > > > > Yes, it sounds like timing. And, if your slipper is touching your cam
> > > > > chain, then its not sitting properly. A tight cam chain shouldn't be
> > > > > rubbing against the slipper. Maybe you forgot the pin in the bottom of the
> > > > > slipper, there are two pins holding it in place or maybe it slipped out.
> > > > > But you do need it. If it wasn't there the cam chain would eat away at the
> > > > > aluminum and cause metal chips to fall into the crank case. The metal chips
> > > > > will eventually flow into the bearing cages on your crankshaft and then over
> > > > > time will eat the bearing cages to a point that a rod will start knocking.
> > > > > Or before that happens chips will get into the bearings on the transmission
> > > > > counter shaft causing it to fail. It's not hard to fix the pins if the seat
> > > > > in the cylinder barrels has warn. Use JB Weld and make them permeant Oh if
> > > > > there is a failure in the slipper, you can remove the JB Weld and put in
> > > > > new pins and slipper a whole bunch easier.
> > > > > If I can suggest it, look at the file on the yahoo group site "Changing out
> > > > > your Cam Chain" It will give some trouble shooting guides and get your car
> > > > > timing back.
> > > > > Bill
> > > > > _____
> > > > > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>] On Behalf Of Mike
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 3:20 PM
> > > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > > > Yes, I actually meant the slipper. I forgot it was called that.
> > > > > My engine has been backfiring into the intake manifold. It's like the intake
> > > > > valve is opening too soon or something. The problem becomes less severe if I
> > > > > significantly advance the timing, but still happens.
> > > > > It's very frustrating. I set the valve timeing using the line on the
> > > > > camshaft, and it looks pretty good. It's definitely not off by a full tooth.
> > > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > , "Bill" wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Mike
> > > > > > Are you talking about the slipper?
> > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > _____
> > > > > > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > ] On Behalf Of Mike
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 2:53 PM
> > > > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Cam Chain guide - go without it?
> > > > > > Hi guys,
> > > > > > Has anyone ever put there engine back together WITHOUT that long skinny
> > > > > > crumbly plastic coated cam chain guide? I mean, how much of a guide is it?
> > > > > > Will the chain come off track with out it? It seems like there is already
> > > > > > enough stuff holding the cam chain in place.
> > > > > > What do you guys think?
> > > > > > the reason I ask is because I think my chain guide is pushing on my chain
> > > > > > too much and causing a slight advance in the valve timing. It pushes a
> > > > > > little more on the chain after I rebuilt the engine and rebuilt the
> > > > > holders
> > > > > > for the chain guide.
> > > > > > thanks,
> > > > > > Mike.

dealadayray · Post by **dealadayray** » Sat May 11, 2013 6:20 pm

Chas;
It is the check to see if the pressure increases which will mean that the rings are bad, if the pressure does not increase then it is the valves.
It’s an old school test for motors. But you are correct, it will give a better reading if the rings are at fault.
With Respect Bill

Chas · Post by **Chas** » Sun May 12, 2013 6:17 am

Hi Bill,
Thank you for the clarification. I am aware of the oil test, and it is a great way to isolate ring problems vs valve issues. I was just trying to clarify Eric's post which sounded like he ALWAYS tested compression with a squirt of oil in the cylinders, which would give the original poster the impression that if his compression was higher with oil, that his engine was fine.
Chas

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "William Colford" wrote:
> Chas;
> It is the check to see if the pressure increases which will mean that the
> rings are bad, if the pressure does not increase then it is the valves.
> It's an old school test for motors. But you are correct, it will give a
> better reading if the rings are at fault.
> With Respect
> Bill

dealadayray · Post by **dealadayray** » Sun May 12, 2013 7:26 am

Hi Chas;
I figured you did and I know Mark does to. And you’re right, the test is misleading if not explained fully. Also, keeping the throttle wide open is another noted “must do” part of the test that was brought up. But all of them are indicators and not definers. I have had leak down tests that were inconclusive. I even had an engine that had two different sized pistons in it, a real mess. Then there was another I took apart that was missing the crank bearings on the stator side of the motor. And they both ran and had been running for some time. Just another testament to the over engineering put into this small motor.
This is why there are rebuilt and refurbished motors, transmissions and final drives. I have a full synchro differential that is missing the right side of all the teeth on the final gear assembly. It had been taken apart and cleaned up because none of the teeth or metal chips were in the crankcase. What a mess, but it ran, and the guy sold it to an unsuspecting buyer. So the old adage “Buyer Beware” holds true.
Maybe this should be a album in the group site, let everyone put up warn, broken and just junk that they found when restoring their Honda 600. Some belong in a museum.
Bill

Honda600Forum.com

Cam Chain guide - go without it?

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Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?

Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?

Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?

Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?

timing - chain, rockers, points all has to be on the money

Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?

Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?

Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?

Re: Cam Chain guide - go without it?