Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup

friend · Post by **friend** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:05 am

Hi Steve;
Just got back on line, dealing with Gustov and watching the RNC rather than doing e-mail.
Dale has it right about grounding out. But normally we do this to our selves by allowing the ends of the three white wires coming from the stator to touch. The best fix and a maintenance for all Honda 600 owners is to look at the wires coming from the brushes and stator.
Insulate each at the connection points and bound together. Honda had an 8 inch section of rubber tubing to cover all of it and route on the inside of the engine mount cross bar up to the body. Routing the wires correctly and insulating them properly will keep every thing safe.
As the the voltage increasing with the engine speed comment by JN, that is not a normal condition. Alternators should be constant. Check your wires coming from the rectifier for insulation damage. (note factory wrapping is not like electrical tape, it has no gum on it) sometimes this will become damaged over the years and will allow the wires to chaff against the wire run tangs. Also look at the black wire on the voltage regulator connection. The connector can become corroded and loose contact creating resistance which will result in heat causing the insulation to melt. Remember, without knowing what caused the problem doing the same thing will only give you the same results.
Bill

Kevin Lister · Post by **Kevin Lister** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:17 pm

Hi Bill,
Alternators are not constant. The fact that alternators are not constant is one of the reasons you must have a voltage regulator. The regulators job is to take a wandering DC voltage and make sure it is constant. The wandering DC voltage is a direct result of a wandering AC voltage.
I put my Fluke DMM on the terminals of my alternator and it definitely changed voltage. I also looked at the output with my Tektronix 475 oscilloscope and saw the same thing. I was only looking at it with my scope to determine if the alternator was suffering from current saturation since I run a modern stereo system in my 600. The sine waves were very sinusoidal!
I've noticed on modern vehicles that there is very little variance in output voltage on the alternators. I pretty sure this is due to the fact that the alternators on all other cars does not run 1:1 with the engine revolutions. Of course, I could be completely full of it. ;o)
kev

--- On
Fri, 9/5/08, billmyong@...

wrote:
From: billmyong@...
Subject: [anzhonda600owners] RE: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com, anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 1:04 AM
Hi Steve;
Just got back on line, dealing with Gustov and watching the RNC rather than doing e-mail.
Dale has it right about grounding out. But normally we do this to our selves by allowing the ends of the three white wires coming from the stator to touch. The best fix and a maintenance for all Honda 600 owners is to look at the wires coming from the brushes and stator. Insulate each at the connection points and bound together. Honda had an 8 inch section of rubber tubing to cover all of it and route on the inside of the engine mount cross bar up to the body. Routing the wires correctly and insulating them properly will keep every thing safe.
As the the voltage increasing with the engine speed comment by JN, that is not a normal condition. Alternators should be constant. Check your wires coming from the rectifier for insulation damage. (note factory wrapping is not like electrical tape, it has no gum on it) sometimes this will become damaged over the years and will allow the wires to chaff against the wire run tangs. Also look at the black wire on the voltage regulator connection. The connector can become corroded and loose contact creating resistance which will result in heat causing the insulation to melt. Remember, without knowing what caused the problem doing the same thing will only give you the same results.
Bill

friend · Post by **friend** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:39 am

Hi Kev;
Agree, nothing is constant.
And the voltage regulator is a needed part in the charging circuit.
And, as I said, there needs to be clean contacts and grounds to ensure the resistance (as Dale said earlier) is as small as possible. Rebuilding a voltage regulator for the Honda 600 is a chore but one that can be done.
Also, other voltage regulators will work in the Honda 600. Just needs to be rewired.
Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Kevin
> Lister
> Sent:
> Friday, September 05, 2008 5:17 PM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> Re: [anzhonda600owners]
> RE: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup
> Hi Bill,
> Alternators are not constant. The fact that alternators are not > constant is one of the reasons you must have a voltage regulator. The > regulators job is to take a wandering DC voltage and make sure it is > constant. The wandering DC voltage is a direct result of a wandering AC > voltage.
> I put my Fluke DMM on the terminals of my alternator and it > definitely changed voltage. I also looked at the output with my > Tektronix 475 oscilloscope and saw the same thing. I was only looking at > it with my scope to determine if the alternator was suffering from > current saturation since I run a modern stereo system in my 600. The > sine waves were very sinusoidal!
> I've noticed on modern vehicles that there is very little variance > in output voltage on the alternators. I pretty sure this is due to the > fact that the alternators on all other cars does not run 1:1 with the > engine revolutions. Of course, I could be completely full of it.
> ;o)
> kev
> --- On
> Fri, 9/5/08, billmyong@earthlink .net
>
> wrote:
> > From:
> > billmyong@earthlink .net
> >
> > Subject: [anzhonda600owners]
> > RE: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup > > To:
> > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com,
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Friday, September
> > 5, 2008, 1:04 AM
> > Hi Steve;
> > Just got back on line, dealing with
> > Gustov and watching the RNC rather than doing e-mail.
> > Dale has it right about grounding
> > out. But normally we do this to our selves by allowing the ends > > of the three white wires coming from the stator to touch. The > > best fix and a maintenance for all Honda 600 owners is to look at the > > wires coming from the brushes and stator. Insulate each at the > > connection points and bound together. Honda had an 8 inch > > section of rubber tubing to cover all of it and route on the inside of > > the engine mount cross bar up to the body. Routing the wires > > correctly and insulating them properly will keep every thing > > safe.
> > As the the voltage increasing with the
> > engine speed comment by JN, that is not a normal > > condition.   Alternators should be constant. Check > > your wires coming from the rectifier for insulation damage.
> > (note factory wrapping is not like electrical tape, it has no gum on > > it)   sometimes this will become damaged over the years and > > will allow the wires to chaff against the wire run tangs. Also > > look at the black wire on the voltage regulator connection. The > > connector can become corroded and loose contact creating resistance > > which will result in heat causing the insulation to melt.
> > Remember, without knowing what caused the problem doing the same thing > > will only give you the same results.
> > Bill
> > -----Original
> > Message-----
> > From:
> > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > [mailto:2cylinderho ndas@yahoogroups .com]
> > On Behalf Of
> > Steven
> > Michelsen
> > Sent:
> > Thursday, September 04, 2008 7:10
> > PM
> > To:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com; 2cylinderhondas@
> > yahoogroups. com
> > Subject:
> > Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in
> > the middle of a tuneup
> > > OK, I scraped the crud and calcification off the rectifier, > > > removed the three old cable ends (tons of solder on there!), painted > > > the battery tray, built new cables and put it all back > > > together. It's all good and moving down the street as it > > > should!   I checked the new connectors after 30 minutes of > > > driving - no unusual heat buildup.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From:
> > > > goinhm@...
> > > > To:
> > > > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent:
> > > > Wednesday, September
> > > > 03, 2008 11:32 PM
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Re:
> > > > [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup
> > > > Hi Mike,
> > > >     No maintenance is necessary for the
> > > > rectifier. It either works or it doesn't.
> > > > You might keep it clean, though. As a result of the > > > > current through it, it may
> > > > generate several watts of heat.
> > > >      I don't think Steve is having a
> > > > problem with the rectifier. I think he is experiencing
> > > > intermittent shorting where one (or more) of the 3 white > > > > wires from the alternator is
> > > > shorting to the chassis or shorting to one of its neighboring > > > > white wires. This causes
> > > > the alternator to have to generate a lot of current and the > > > > motor doesn't have enough
> > > > hp to sustain it.   I think Steve could have
> > > > disconnected his alternator, taped off the wires from
> > > > the alternator, and started his car and driven
> > > > home. The battery power would have been
> > > > sufficient to keep the car running till he arrived home > > > > (especially if he wasn't using headlights).
> > > > Dale
> > > > > Is
> > > > > there any maintenance that needs to be done to the > > > > > rectifier?
Mike

It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here .
Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database:
270.6.14/1643 - Release Date: 8/30/2008 5:18 PM

Kevin Lister · Post by **Kevin Lister** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:37 pm

Yeah, I'd like to drop a solid stat unit in the car. I bought one from a group member on eBay and it never worked. Never got a replacement from him or a refund. Pretty unhappy about that. Miles C. gave me a working regulator and it's been fine.
kev

--- On
Sat, 9/6/08, billmyong@...

wrote:
From: billmyong@...
Subject: RE: [anzhonda600owners] RE: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 6, 2008, 7:38 AM
Hi Kev;
Agree, nothing is constant. And the voltage regulator is a needed part in the charging circuit.   And, as I said, there needs to be clean contacts and grounds to ensure the resistance (as Dale said earlier) is as small as possible. Rebuilding a voltage regulator for the Honda 600 is a chore but one that can be done. Also, other voltage regulators will work in the Honda 600. Just needs to be rewired.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com] > On Behalf Of > Kevin Lister > Sent:
> Friday, September 05, 2008 5:17 PM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject:
> Re: [anzhonda600owners] RE: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup
> Hi Bill,
> Alternators are not constant. The fact that alternators are not constant is one of the reasons you must have a voltage regulator. The regulators job is to take a wandering DC voltage and make sure it is constant. The wandering DC voltage is a direct result of a wandering AC voltage.
> I put my Fluke DMM on the terminals of my alternator and it definitely changed voltage. I also looked at the output with my Tektronix 475 oscilloscope and saw the same thing. I was only looking at it with my scope to determine if the alternator was suffering from current saturation since I run a modern stereo system in my 600. The sine waves were very sinusoidal!
> I've noticed on modern vehicles that there is very little variance in output voltage on the alternators. I pretty sure this is due to the fact that the alternators on all other cars does not run 1:1 with the engine revolutions. Of course, I could be completely full of it. ;o)
> kev
> --- On
> Fri, 9/5/08, billmyong@earthlink .net
>
> wrote:
> > From: billmyong@earthlink .net > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] RE: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup > > To: 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com, anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com > > Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 1:04 AM
> > Hi Steve;
> > Just got back on line, dealing with Gustov and watching the RNC rather than doing e-mail.
> > Dale has it right about grounding out. But normally we do this to our selves by allowing the ends of the three white wires coming from the stator to touch. The best fix and a maintenance for all Honda 600 owners is to look at the wires coming from the brushes and stator. Insulate each at the connection points and bound together. Honda had an 8 inch section of rubber tubing to cover all of it and route on the inside of the engine mount cross bar up to the body. Routing the wires correctly and insulating them properly will keep every thing safe.
> > As the the voltage increasing with the engine speed comment by JN, that is not a normal condition.   Alternators should be constant. Check your wires coming from the rectifier for insulation damage. (note factory wrapping is not like electrical tape, it has no gum on it)   sometimes this will become damaged over the years and will allow the wires to chaff against the wire run tangs. Also look at the black wire on the voltage regulator connection. The connector can become corroded and loose contact creating resistance which will result in heat causing the insulation to melt.   Remember, without knowing what caused the problem doing the same thing will only give you the same results.
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:2cylinderho ndas@yahoogroups .com] > > On Behalf Of > > Steven Michelsen > > Sent:
> > Thursday, September 04, 2008 7:10 PM
> > To:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com; 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com > > Subject:
> > Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup
> > > OK, I scraped the crud and calcification off the rectifier, removed the three old cable ends (tons of solder on there!), painted the battery tray, built new cables and put it all back together. It's all good and moving down the street as it should!   I checked the new connectors after 30 minutes of driving - no unusual heat buildup.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From:
> > > > goinhm@...
> > > > To:
> > > > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent:
> > > > Wednesday, September 03, 2008 11:32 PM
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup
> > > > Hi Mike,
> > > >     No maintenance is necessary for the rectifier. It either works or it doesn't.
> > > > You might keep it clean, though. As a result of the current through it, it may
> > > > generate several watts of heat.
> > > >      I don't think Steve is having a problem with the rectifier. I think he is experiencing
> > > > intermittent shorting where one (or more) of the 3 white wires from the alternator is
> > > > shorting to the chassis or shorting to one of its neighboring white wires. This causes
> > > > the alternator to have to generate a lot of current and the motor doesn't have enough
> > > > hp to sustain it.   I think Steve could have disconnected his alternator, taped off the wires from
> > > > the alternator, and started his car and driven home. The battery power would have been
> > > > sufficient to keep the car running till he arrived home (especially if he wasn't using headlights).
> > > > Dale
> > > > > Is there any maintenance that needs to be done to the rectifier?
> > > Mike
> It's only a deal if it's where
> you
> want to go. Find your travel deal
> here
> .
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1643 - Release Date: 8/30/2008 5:18 PM

Robert Goodrich · Post by **Robert Goodrich** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:52 pm

there is a set on ebay new for $150 bucks

--- On
Thu, 9/4/08, JN

wrote:
> From: JN
> Subject: RE: [anzhonda600owners] anyone know where to get 145/89 R WW10" tires?
> To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 11:32 AM
> Coker has 145/80 10" white walls but they are bias and $106 plus $14 for the tube: ouch:pricey. Tire Rack has black wall for $42. Heritage in Costa Mesa has black wall for $40. Anyone know about a radial white wall or a white wall that's cheaper?
> --- On
> Wed, 9/3/08, Mike and Tami Speer
>
> wrote:
> > From: Mike and Tami Speer
> > Subject: RE: [anzhonda600owners] anyone know where to get 145/89 R WW10" tires?
> > To: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 8:07 PM
> > I bought mine at
> > www.tirerack. com
> > Mike
> > From:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com ] > > On Behalf Of > > JN > > Sent:
> > Wednesday, September 03, 2008 4:57 PM
> > To:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject:
> > [anzhonda600owners] anyone know where to get 145/89 R WW10" tires?
> Coker has bias in ww but very pricey @ $106 plus $14 for the tube.
> --- On
> Wed, 9/3/08, Steven Michelsen
>
> wrote:
> From: Steven Michelsen
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup > To: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com , 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 2:20 PM
> OK, here is an update on the "tuneup" (AKA trying to get the coupe to start)
> Yesterday, I replaced the points and condensor. set the gap on the points. I did not (yet) replace the blue wire, though it was a bit chewed up (meter showed it to not be broken). The car started right up and ran well. I drove it to a local weekly show, then (almost) home. The car died suddenly while coasting to a light. After messing with the points some more I gave up and called AAA.
> Today I rebuilt the blue cable with 16 gauge wire and new ends. I installed it - and the OLD condensor, just to see if it was still good. I redid the points gap. The car started up immediately. I let it idle for a while. no problem. I noted a wisp of smoke coming up from the engine bay, took a look, and found that the three wires that run from the engine to the rectifier were melting together at the connectors.
> Here is an old picture of those wires.
> Turned the car off, stripped the black wrap from the wires and found them fused together for a few inches going back towards the rectifier. I pulled the battery and tray and flipped it over to see the other ends of the wires (they will be replaced altogether). The > rectifier is buried in YEARS of road crud - it's amazing the thing worked at all. I will be cleaning all of that up.
> Why did the wires melt? Might the rectifier have an issue? Or maybe the connectors just corroded? Any maintainence to do on the rectifier other than clean it? What gauge wire should I use to replace the three bad ones? I plan to use weatherproof bullet connectors at the point where they meet the wires from the motor, rather than the spade-type that was originally there.
> Steve
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From:
> > Steven Michelsen
> > To:
> > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. . com
> > Sent:
> > Sunday, August 10, 2008 12:36 AM
> > Subject:
> > Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup
> > Mike,
> > I am pretty sure I had both wires in the center when I tried to start the car.
> > No chance to reinstall the points or do any testing until tomorrow night at the earliest; I will pass along my findings.
> > Thanks,
> > Steve
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From:
> > > Mike and Tami Speer
> > > To:
> > > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. . com
> > > Sent:
> > > Saturday, August 09, 2008 11:07 AM
> > > Subject:
> > > RE: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup
> > > How did you have them Steve?
> > > I asked this over at the Honda 600 Owners board but didn?t get an answer, how much spark should I see with these?
> > > Mine is nice and blue but the spark itself is very thin and hard to see, I had to turn off my garage lights to see it well as I could barely see it with the lights on.
> > > I am used to checking cars with a larger coil and those have a fatter spark.
> > > Mike
> > > From:
> > > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:2cylinderho ndas@yahoogroups ..com] > > > On Behalf Of > > > Steven Michelsen > > > Sent:
> > > Saturday, August 09, 2008 7:08 AM
> > > To:
> > > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject:
> > > Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup
> > > Mark,
> > > I think you're right about the condensor wire! I redid the wiring and will reinstall tonight.
> > > Here is how it is wired now
> > > . Please let me know if this is right.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Steve
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mark" > > doc_coffin@yahoo. com
> > > To: > > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:30 PM
> > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup
> > > > --- In
> > > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > > , "Mark Kuran" wrote:
> > > >> Check if you have a spark coming out of the wires to the spark plugs > > > >> while cranking.
> > > >> Mark
> > > > If no spark, check that you have the condenser wire in between the > > > > proper washers and insulators. This very small eror has messed me up > > > > several times!
> > > > Mark Coffin
> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

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Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup