Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: 90 mph in a 600 sedan

Archived posts from the ANZ Honda 600 Owners Yahoo Group
TOM THIES
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:47 am

Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: 90 mph in a 600 sedan

Post by TOM THIES »

IT was a great little car,  Yellow with pin stripping on the back sides.  The mechanic at the honda shop wanted me to put the different cam in it and race it but I needed it for work and all.  Glad I did not do that because I tore it up pretty bad any way. I couldn�t leave it downtown alone because people would pick it up and put the thing up some stairs in front of a building,  so at 1 am I would be moving the front and than the back to get it down...lol
Tom T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> billmyong@...
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Thursday, May 06, 2010 5:27
> PM
> Subject:
> RE: [anzhonda600owners]
> [2cylinderhondas] Re: 90 mph in a 600 sedan
> Tom;
> Wish
> I could have seen your Coupe.
> The
> car I was speaking of had new pistons and rings in it, and everything > else was as new as it could be.  At 7200 rpms (from the on board tach) it > dropped off.  I had a friend whos' Coupe was also rebuilt and his dropped > off at right about 7200 rpms too.  This is not once but a couple of > times.  The engines went past the point curve and lost power, then at > about 6000 they started up again.  I was over 40 at the time and we could > still purchase new parts from Honda.   Life was much better then.
> Bill
> -----Original
> Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> On Behalf Of
> TOM
> THIES
> Sent:
> Thursday, May 06, 2010 4:51 PM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject:
> Re:
> [anzhonda600owners] [2cylinderhondas] Re: 90 mph in a 600 > sedan
> > I had a yellow one in 72 (new) and got it up to 90 mph but when I went > > to let of the gas I blew both sparkplugs right out of the engine.  Had > > to do heli coils.  but than I was only 18 or 19 when this happed.
> > could spin tires is 1st and 2nd and get scratch in third.
> > Tom T
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From:
> > > billmyong@earthlink .net
> > > To:
> > > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent:
> > > Thursday, May 06, 2010 4:36
> > > PM
> > > Subject:
> > > RE: [anzhonda600owners]
> > > [2cylinderhondas] Re: 90 mph in a 600 sedan
> > > Hi Lyle;
> > >     Nice rig for your Coupe.
> > > The topic was and still is "what is the top speed of a > > > Honda 600.  In original fully operational engine with all parts in > > > factory new specs, the car will not go above 85 mph by the onboard > > > speedometer.  Now, if there is a Constant transmission speedometer > > > gear in the full synchro transmission then you might read 90 on the > > > speedometer because there is one less tooth on the gear.  Yep, the > > > constant transmission speedometer gear has 15 teeth and the Full synchro > > > transmission speedometer gear has 16.  We like the 15 tooth gear > > > because the shafts are normally not warn as much as the 16 tooth gear > > > is.  Less wear, no leak.
> > >     So, if your Honda 600 says it's running at
> > > 65 and every one is passing you, (yea, I know everyone wants to pass you > > > anyway - no respect) pull the speedo gear and count the teeth.
> > > Bill
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From:
> > > > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com] > > > > On Behalf Of
> > > > lyletrudell
> > > > Sent:
> > > > Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:41
> > > > PM
> > > > To:
> > > > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Subject:
> > > > [anzhonda600owners] [2cylinderhondas] Re: 90 mph in a 600 > > > > sedan
> > > > Hi Bill, you lost me on this?
> > > > "The points only advance so far,
> > > > which is when the RPM's reach
> > > > around 7200, the points move past the
> > > > rotation of the advancer assembly(lobe) causing the points not to open.
> > > > The engine stops running at that point not reaching 90 MPH".
> > > > Are
> > > > you saying the points are floating at 7,200 which is limiting the RPM's?
> > > > Because the advancer unit has already moved the points to max advance > > > > 34degree's at 4,000rpm's.
> > > > This is very possible for cheap stock
> > > > points.
> > > > Pertronics would solve the point float issue.
> > > > It could
> > > > also be that the engine valves are floating at 7,200rpm's?
> > > > This could
> > > > ruin my chances for a 90mph run......
> > > > Lyle
> > > > --- In
> > > > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > ,
> > > > "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > > > I have
> > > > been reading past posts....lots of good info!!
> > > > > Learning alot
> > > > about the unusual things about these cars.
> > > > > From my racing
> > > > hobbies I have learned what most engines and things need for more > > > > power/speed.
> > > > > Many things will limit the max RPM or MPH of any
> > > > car, a "few" are:
> > > > > 1)Ignition, timing initial and total advance,
> > > > spark strength.
> > > > > 2)Cam timing
> > > > > 3)Cam profile
> > > > 4)Intake flow
> > > > > 5)Exhaust flow
> > > > > 6)Higher
> > > > compression
> > > > > 7)Internal friction
> > > > > 8)External
> > > > friction
> > > > > 9)Aerodynamic drag
> > > > > Lets look at any
> > > > performance 4 stroke engine, yes the 600 is a performance motor. More > > > > than 1HP per cube!
> > > > > 1)The ignition timing is OK:
> > > > 10 degree initial with a total advance of 34 at 4,000 RPM.
> > > > > Maybe
> > > > bump the initial up a few degree's to 12-15 depending on Octane, and > > > > limit the total to 36.....don't go over 36!
> > > > > Maybe some weaker
> > > > advance springs to let the timing come all in at 3,000.
> > > > > Hotter
> > > > spark, a single fire coil from a Harley and a MSD box.
> > > > http://cgi.ebay. com/ebaymotors/ SINGLE-FIRE- IGNITON-SUPER- COIL-ACCEL- HARLEY-3OHM- _W0QQcmdZViewIte mQQhashZitem3cac c25627QQitemZ260 596454951QQptZMo torcyclesQ5fPart sQ5fAccessories
> > > > 2)Cam timing, maybe slot the cam gear and advance the stock cam 3-4 > > > > degree's.
> > > > > 3)Cam profiles allow the valves to open more and stay > > > > open longer. Good for moving the power band up the RPM scale, but at the > > > > expense of low end power. The cam profile probably is hurting > > > > RPM.
> > > > > 4)Intake flow, The 38 carb is fine, if it's jetted properly > > > > to match the exhaust. Maybe some porting and a free flowing air > > > > filter..K&N.
> > > > > 5)Exhaust, an equal length header with a free
> > > > flow muffler.
> > > > > 6)Higher compression pistons always help
> > > > power.
> > > > > 7)Internal friction, this is a big one and my favorite!
> > > > So many area's....Crank aligned, bearing pockets matched, crank > > > > parrallel to the case top, bores square to the crank, matched and > > > > balanced.
> > > > > Good synthetic oil.....keep everything cool.
> > > > 8)External friction, this area is always forgotten. The Honda should be > > > > good here, light weight, small rotating mass. Check wheel bearings use > > > > sythetic grease, tires max air pressure, eliminate brake drag, steering > > > > components/alignmen t, anything that rotates causes > > > > friction.
> > > > > Electric cooling fan....
> > > > > 9)Aerodynamics, again
> > > > the Honda coupe is good here. Small frontal area, small skinny tires, > > > > chopped back, good rake to the windshield. Maybe lower it a > > > > little.
> > > > > So could we see 90mph?
> > > > > I think so, if
> > > > "everything" was right.
> > > > > This is kinda like breaking a land speed
> > > > record....and only getting a speeding fine for 15 over!
> > > > > Florida
> > > > is a good place to try it, flat roads and good air!
> > > > > ?
> > > > Lyle
> > > > > --- In
> > > > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > ,
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hi all;
> > > > I have to wade in on this one.
> > > > > > First, I drive
> > > > my Honda 600's at 65 to 70 all the time. Then too, I > > > > > > have > > > > and use oil coolers on my cars. And, I have no problems. Yes, > > > > there > > > > > > have been people that chose to drive across parking > > > > blocks and done some off > > > > > > roading (I think) and knocked the > > > > hose off, causing all the oil to come out.
> > > > > > But this has
> > > > never happened to me, and I know of a number of others that
> > > > have not had this problem. The best part is that you add more oil to > > > > the > > > > > > system, maintain constant running temp and you can > > > > attach oil pressure and > > > > > > temp gauges to monitor your engines > > > > operating temp.
> > > > > > Second, the Honda 600 has two
> > > > transmissions, a full synchro and a
> > > > > > constant. Each has
> > > > their own speedometer gear. The full synchro has 16 > > > > > > teeth, > > > > the constant has 15 teeth. Either will fit in either > > > > transmission.
> > > > > > So, if you want your Honda 600 to look like
> > > > it's going faster by the
> > > > > > speedometer, then put the Constant
> > > > gear (15 teeth) into the full synchro
> > > > > > trans. Your
> > > > speedometer will display faster speeds at a lower RPM, without
> > > > > going any faster.
> > > > > > Third, 90 Mph in a
> > > > stock Honda 600 is a dream or the hill is very steep > > > > > > and > > > > you have the clutch in. Even if you have 1.0 mm over pistons, > > > > reground > > > > > > the cam and put the larger carb on the car using > > > > the angle port head with > > > > > > dual exhaust, your Honda 600 will > > > > not pull 90 mph. The physical > > > > > > requirements are not > > > > available at the points. Both cylinders fire at the > > > > > > same > > > > time, this makes it physically impossible to make RPM high enough > > > > to > > > > > > move the full synchro transmission with stock wheels and > > > > rims to do more > > > > > > than 85 mph. The points only advance so > > > > far, which is when the RPM's reach > > > > > > around 7200, the points > > > > move past the rotation of the advancer assembly > > > > > > (lobe) > > > > causing the points not to open. The engine stops running at that
> > > > > point not reaching 90 MPH. Do the math, and I don't mean the new > > > > math.
> > > > > > Now, if we could get one of the more enlightened > > > > Honda 600 owners to > > > > > > make up some electronic ignition > > > > systems for us, the dream will be reality.
> > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From:
> > > > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > [mailto:
> > > > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > ]On
> > > > Behalf Of Greg Hahs
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:39
> > > > AM
> > > > > > To:
> > > > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Re: 90 mph in a 600 sedan
> > > > > > Just got back from a little drive to see
> > > > what it does in all four gears.
> > > > > > 1st up to
> > > > 20
> > > > > > 2nd up to 45
> > > > > > 3rd up to almost 60
> > > > > 4th didn't try going any faster as I was in a 50 mph zone.
> > > > > > This car really runs great! I'll take Garmin with me > > > > next time to > > > > > > double check.
> > > > Greg
> > > > > > --- In
> > > > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > ,
> > > > "Kathleen" wrote:
> > > > When I lead a group of 600's to the Japanese Classic Car Show in > > > > 2005, > > > > > > > I was going 60MPH in my Coupe. Everyone was > > > > keeping up just fine, but > > > > > > > when we got there, ALL FIVE > > > > of the Sedan drivers said I was going 70 > > > > > > > or more.
> > > > Knowing that my speedometer wasn't THAT far off, I borrowed
> > > > > a GPS, and verified that my car was going exactly 60 and 65 when > > > > my > > > > > > > speedometer said so. Maybe you should all go borrow > > > > a GPS and THEN > > > > > > > tell us how fast you can go.
> > > > > > > I've never gone over 80, which was red-line
> > > > back when the car and I
> > > > > > > were a lot younger. That was
> > > > with a stock engine and my parents in
> > > > > > > the car (and
> > > > probably downhill). Maybe it could have gone faster, but
> > > > > I'm a coward.
lyletrudell
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:54 pm

[2cylinderhondas] Re: 90 mph in a 600 sedan

Post by lyletrudell »

Hi Bill, I agree 78-80mph is about max for a 600. To try and get the engine to rev to 7,500/90mph would kill the low end power and probably trash the crank and the next weakest link.
I will just try to make what we have more reliable.
Lyle
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> Hi Lyle;
> Nice rig for your Coupe.
> The topic was and still is "what is the top speed of a Honda 600. In
> original fully operational engine with all parts in factory new specs, the
> car will not go above 85 mph by the onboard speedometer. Now, if there is a
> Constant transmission speedometer gear in the full synchro transmission then
> you might read 90 on the speedometer because there is one less tooth on the
> gear. Yep, the constant transmission speedometer gear has 15 teeth and the
> Full synchro transmission speedometer gear has 16. We like the 15 tooth
> gear because the shafts are normally not warn as much as the 16 tooth gear
> is. Less wear, no leak.
> So, if your Honda 600 says it's running at 65 and every one is passing
> you, (yea, I know everyone wants to pass you anyway - no respect) pull the
> speedo gear and count the teeth.
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of lyletrudell
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:41 PM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] [2cylinderhondas] Re: 90 mph in a 600 sedan
> Hi Bill, you lost me on this?
> "The points only advance so far, which is when the RPM's reach
> around 7200, the points move past the rotation of the advancer
> assembly(lobe) causing the points not to open. The engine stops running at
> that point not reaching 90 MPH".
> Are you saying the points are floating at 7,200 which is limiting the
> RPM's? Because the advancer unit has already moved the points to max advance
> 34degree's at 4,000rpm's.
> This is very possible for cheap stock points.
> Pertronics would solve the point float issue.
> It could also be that the engine valves are floating at 7,200rpm's?
> This could ruin my chances for a 90mph run......
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell"
> wrote:
> > I have been reading past posts....lots of good info!!
> > Learning alot about the unusual things about these cars.
> > From my racing hobbies I have learned what most engines and things need
> for more power/speed.
> > Many things will limit the max RPM or MPH of any car, a "few" are:
> > 1)Ignition, timing initial and total advance, spark strength.
> > 2)Cam timing
> > 3)Cam profile
> > 4)Intake flow
> > 5)Exhaust flow
> > 6)Higher compression
> > 7)Internal friction
> > 8)External friction
> > 9)Aerodynamic drag
> > Lets look at any performance 4 stroke engine, yes the 600 is a
> performance motor. More than 1HP per cube!
> > 1)The ignition timing is OK:
> > 10 degree initial with a total advance of 34 at 4,000 RPM.
> > Maybe bump the initial up a few degree's to 12-15 depending on Octane,
> and limit the total to 36.....don't go over 36!
> > Maybe some weaker advance springs to let the timing come all in at
> 3,000.
> > Hotter spark, a single fire coil from a Harley and a MSD box.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SINGLE-F ... L-HARLEY-3
> OHM-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3cacc25627QQitemZ260596454951QQptZMotorcycle
> sQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
> > 2)Cam timing, maybe slot the cam gear and advance the stock cam 3-4
> degree's.
> > 3)Cam profiles allow the valves to open more and stay open longer. Good
> for moving the power band up the RPM scale, but at the expense of low end
> power. The cam profile probably is hurting RPM.
> > 4)Intake flow, The 38 carb is fine, if it's jetted properly to match the
> exhaust. Maybe some porting and a free flowing air filter..K&N.
> > 5)Exhaust, an equal length header with a free flow muffler.
> > 6)Higher compression pistons always help power.
> > 7)Internal friction, this is a big one and my favorite! So many
> area's....Crank aligned, bearing pockets matched, crank parrallel to the
> case top, bores square to the crank, matched and balanced.
> > Good synthetic oil.....keep everything cool.
> > 8)External friction, this area is always forgotten. The Honda should be
> good here, light weight, small rotating mass. Check wheel bearings use
> sythetic grease, tires max air pressure, eliminate brake drag, steering
> components/alignment, anything that rotates causes friction.
> > Electric cooling fan....
> > 9)Aerodynamics, again the Honda coupe is good here. Small frontal area,
> small skinny tires, chopped back, good rake to the windshield. Maybe lower
> it a little.
> > So could we see 90mph?
> > I think so, if "everything" was right.
> > This is kinda like breaking a land speed record....and only getting a
> speeding fine for 15 over!
> > Florida is a good place to try it, flat roads and good air!
> > ?
> > Lyle
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> > > Hi all;
> > > I have to wade in on this one.
> > > First, I drive my Honda 600's at 65 to 70 all the time. Then too, I
> > > have and use oil coolers on my cars. And, I have no problems. Yes,
> there
> > > have been people that chose to drive across parking blocks and done
> some off
> > > roading (I think) and knocked the hose off, causing all the oil to
> come out.
> > > But this has never happened to me, and I know of a number of others
> that
> > > have not had this problem. The best part is that you add more oil to
> the
> > > system, maintain constant running temp and you can attach oil pressure
> and
> > > temp gauges to monitor your engines operating temp.
> > > Second, the Honda 600 has two transmissions, a full synchro and a
> > > constant. Each has their own speedometer gear. The full synchro has 16
> > > teeth, the constant has 15 teeth. Either will fit in either
> transmission.
> > > So, if you want your Honda 600 to look like it's going faster by the
> > > speedometer, then put the Constant gear (15 teeth) into the full
> synchro
> > > trans. Your speedometer will display faster speeds at a lower RPM,
> without
> > > going any faster.
> > > Third, 90 Mph in a stock Honda 600 is a dream or the hill is very
> steep
> > > and you have the clutch in. Even if you have 1.0 mm over pistons,
> reground
> > > the cam and put the larger carb on the car using the angle port head
> with
> > > dual exhaust, your Honda 600 will not pull 90 mph. The physical
> > > requirements are not available at the points. Both cylinders fire at
> the
> > > same time, this makes it physically impossible to make RPM high enough
> to
> > > move the full synchro transmission with stock wheels and rims to do
> more
> > > than 85 mph. The points only advance so far, which is when the RPM's
> reach
> > > around 7200, the points move past the rotation of the advancer
> assembly
> > > (lobe) causing the points not to open. The engine stops running at
> that
> > > point not reaching 90 MPH. Do the math, and I don't mean the new math.
> > > Now, if we could get one of the more enlightened Honda 600 owners to
> > > make up some electronic ignition systems for us, the dream will be
> reality.
> > > Bill
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Greg Hahs
> > > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:39 AM
> > > To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Re: 90 mph in a 600 sedan
> > > Just got back from a little drive to see what it does in all four
> gears.
> > > 1st up to 20
> > > 2nd up to 45
> > > 3rd up to almost 60
> > > 4th didn't try going any faster as I was in a 50 mph zone.
> > > This car really runs great! I'll take Garmin with me next time to
> > > double check.
> > > Greg
> > > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "Kathleen" wrote:
> > > > When I lead a group of 600's to the Japanese Classic Car Show in
> 2005,
> > > > I was going 60MPH in my Coupe. Everyone was keeping up just fine,
> but
> > > > when we got there, ALL FIVE of the Sedan drivers said I was going 70
> > > > or more. Knowing that my speedometer wasn't THAT far off, I borrowed
> > > > a GPS, and verified that my car was going exactly 60 and 65 when my
> > > > speedometer said so. Maybe you should all go borrow a GPS and THEN
> > > > tell us how fast you can go.
> > > > I've never gone over 80, which was red-line back when the car and I
> > > > were a lot younger. That was with a stock engine and my parents in
> > > > the car (and probably downhill). Maybe it could have gone faster,
> but
> > > > I'm a coward.
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