Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly

[brad fenn]

I am actually working on a crank trigger system that uses a crank sensor and then coil packs off a later model Jap. car. I haven't got it all figured out yet as my project stalled for a while. But some members of one of the car clubs I belong to are using the crank trigger set up on their BMW 2002s.and using an electronic control unit, so they can dial in their advance curve on a laptop.I am doing this on mine due to the turbo.
From:
Mega To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com Sent:
Wed, July 28, 2010 10:10:17 AM Subject:
[anzhonda600owners] Re: Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly and Coil question.....
Thanks for the info about the notch on the cam shaft. I re-checked my timing using the notch on the cam and the mark on the belt drive wheel. The timing was right on. I actually got my car to start up and run yesterday. I simply messed with the points a little bit, and installed the rest of the exhaust, and used the choke a little.
It ran pretty well for a while, but then it stopped sparking. A few moments later, my ignition coil litterally pooped and shot smoke and goo out of the side of it. I've ordered a new one.
I'm curious what do most of you use for an ignition coil on your engines?? Mine is an aftermarket Accel Harley Super Coil, part number 140403S.
Is that a good coil to use?? My engine ran ok with it before it exploded.
thanks,
Mike.

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> Updated post, want the info to be as accurate as possible.
> The slot should be the best spot to get cam orientation, it should also be in alignment with the ignition locator pin. This is where the cam was located off to grind it.
> The other mark is a casting mark and it might not be right, it may have been used for reference when the rough casting was being machined.
> Problem area:
> This Honda engine, like any over head cam design must be machined accuratly from the factory for the height dimension between the crank centerline and cam centerline! This dimension must be maintained!
> If you or a past owner machined any material off the cam housing, head, cylinders or cases then the cam timing will be "Retarded".
> Also the gaskets must be the stock thickness.
> If the timing is off using thicker/thinner gaskets is one way to adjust timing, like Blake said. But you have to check cam timing first to adjust, or know what machining has been done to the engine.
> Mike, I can't see how you could be off one tooth on the cam chain and have any of the marks line up. If you know cam specs for this engine, then you could use a degree wheel and check the cam. Your teacher should be able to help you.
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > Blake, your right. It will retard the timing...oops.
> > Will change my post.
> > Accuracy has everything to do with engines!
> > Mill the cylinder base off square by .002" from the bores and see how it runs.
> > The actual distance is not important, but has to be a known accurate dimension.
> > Any motor that I mill or change, I degree the cam.
> > Then you check the timing, disassemble, add gasket thickness like Blake said, then reassemble and check.
> > Most stuff I work on has adjustable cam gears.
> > Mike, if the past owner machined anything or the chain & sprockets are worn the cam timing would be off.
> > Just degree it and go from there.
> > Someone in this club must have done it before, maybe Blake.
> > Of course this is not a race engine, so it will probably be close enough.
> > Lyle
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, blake neilson wrote:
> > > Milling the head, or cylinders, or cases will RETARD the cam timing.�  And milling accuracy has nothing to do with it. Only thicker (by the amount milled) gaskets will compensate.
> > > Blake
> > > --- On Tue, 7/27/10, lyletrudell wrote:
> > > From: lyletrudell
> > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Tuesday, July 27, 2010, 3:01 PM
> > > The slot should be the best spot to get cam orientation, it should also be in alignment with the ignition locator pin.
> > > This is where the cam was located off to grind it.
> > > The other mark is a casting mark and it might not be right, it may have been used for reference when the rough casting was being machined.
> > > Problem area:
> > > This Honda engine, like any over head cam design must be machined accuratly for height between the crank centerline and cam centerline!
> > > If you or a past owner machined any material off the cam housing, head, cylinders or cases then the cam timing will be advanced. And because our cam gear is not adjustable we are in trouble! Although I did see a cam with an adjustable cam gear somewhere.
> > > Mike, I can't see how you could be off one tooth on the cam chain and have any of the marks line up. If you know cam specs for this engine, then you could use a degree wheel and check the cam. Your teacher should be able to help you.
> > > Lyle
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, misterpoopoohead@ wrote:
> > > > From what I've been told the slot and the straight line are in the wrong place on some cams. They aren't serialized so apparently no way to identify except by looking at them. Sucks, don't it?
> > > > Kev
> > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: brad fenn
> > > > Sender:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:20:24
> > > > To: > > > Reply-To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> > > > Its been a while since I had a 600 engine apart, but doesn't the cam have a slot
> > > > cut in one end that can be seen through the camholder. And that slot should be
> > > > straight up when at TDC.
> > > > From: "misterpoopoohead@"
> > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 11:06:27 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed
> > > > correctly
> > > > Dude. Some cams are marked wrong from the factory. Crazy, but apparently true.
> > > > Kev
> > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > > From: "Mega"
> > > > Sender: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:11:01 -0000
> > > > To:
> > > > ReplyTo: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> > > > Hi guys,
> > > > So I got my engine back in the car today and sort of started it. It barely
> > > > starts at all, and when it does, it runs really rough.
> > > > I have to retard the timing as much as possible to get it to start. I'm
> > > > wondering if I set the cam shaft correctly??
> > > > I lined the engine belt pulley up with the "T" on the case, and checked to make
> > > > sure my piston really was at TDC, and not at BDC.
> > > > Then I put in the cam so that the line on the gear was perfectly level and flat.
> > > > Put the chain on the cam, and installed the two cam shaft holders on the sides.
> > > > Then I rotated the engine around a couple times with the cam chain tensioner
> > > > installed, so there was no slack in the chain. When I lined the pulley up with
> > > > the "T" again, the flat line was still flat like it should be. But kind of
> > > > feels like the timing is not right.
> > > > Tomorrow, I plan to get it started and put a timing light on the engine. But I
> > > > don't know where the mark on the pulley should be when I point the timing light
> > > > at it. Does anyone know where it should be??
> > > > thanks a lot,
> > > > Mike.

[lyletrudell]

Mike, sounds like you are getting close to having your Coupe running!
I don't see many choices for coils.
The stock one is not available, except used.
The Accel is a good coil, make sure it's a dual fire type like some Harleys use. Ebay had some off brands also.
Good plug wires, plugs, points, condensor, vacuum advance working and timing on.
Use a vacuum gauge and make sure you have no leaks and a steady reading. Brake booster is a good place for a leak.
Once warmed up maybe do a compression check.
The next picture you post will be you behind the wheel!
Nice job :)
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Mega" wrote:
> Thanks for the info about the notch on the cam shaft. I re-checked my timing using the notch on the cam and the mark on the belt drive wheel. The timing was right on. I actually got my car to start up and run yesterday. I simply messed with the points a little bit, and installed the rest of the exhaust, and used the choke a little.
> It ran pretty well for a while, but then it stopped sparking. A few moments later, my ignition coil litterally pooped and shot smoke and goo out of the side of it. I've ordered a new one.
> I'm curious what do most of you use for an ignition coil on your engines?? Mine is an aftermarket Accel Harley Super Coil, part number 140403S.
> Is that a good coil to use?? My engine ran ok with it before it exploded.
> thanks,
> Mike.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > Updated post, want the info to be as accurate as possible.
> > The slot should be the best spot to get cam orientation, it should also be in alignment with the ignition locator pin. This is where the cam was located off to grind it.
> > The other mark is a casting mark and it might not be right, it may have been used for reference when the rough casting was being machined.
> > Problem area:
> > This Honda engine, like any over head cam design must be machined accuratly from the factory for the height dimension between the crank centerline and cam centerline! This dimension must be maintained!
> > If you or a past owner machined any material off the cam housing, head, cylinders or cases then the cam timing will be "Retarded".
> > Also the gaskets must be the stock thickness.
> > If the timing is off using thicker/thinner gaskets is one way to adjust timing, like Blake said. But you have to check cam timing first to adjust, or know what machining has been done to the engine.
> > Mike, I can't see how you could be off one tooth on the cam chain and have any of the marks line up. If you know cam specs for this engine, then you could use a degree wheel and check the cam. Your teacher should be able to help you.
> > Lyle
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > Blake, your right. It will retard the timing...oops.
> > > Will change my post.
> > > Accuracy has everything to do with engines!
> > > Mill the cylinder base off square by .002" from the bores and see how it runs.
> > > The actual distance is not important, but has to be a known accurate dimension.
> > > Any motor that I mill or change, I degree the cam.
> > > Then you check the timing, disassemble, add gasket thickness like Blake said, then reassemble and check.
> > > Most stuff I work on has adjustable cam gears.
> > > Mike, if the past owner machined anything or the chain & sprockets are worn the cam timing would be off.
> > > Just degree it and go from there.
> > > Someone in this club must have done it before, maybe Blake.
> > > Of course this is not a race engine, so it will probably be close enough.
> > > Lyle
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, blake neilson wrote:
> > > > Milling the head, or cylinders, or cases will RETARD the cam timing.  And milling accuracy has nothing to do with it. Only thicker (by the amount milled) gaskets will compensate.
> > > > Blake
> > > > --- On Tue, 7/27/10, lyletrudell wrote:
> > > > From: lyletrudell
> > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Tuesday, July 27, 2010, 3:01 PM
> > > > The slot should be the best spot to get cam orientation, it should also be in alignment with the ignition locator pin.
> > > > This is where the cam was located off to grind it.
> > > > The other mark is a casting mark and it might not be right, it may have been used for reference when the rough casting was being machined.
> > > > Problem area:
> > > > This Honda engine, like any over head cam design must be machined accuratly for height between the crank centerline and cam centerline!
> > > > If you or a past owner machined any material off the cam housing, head, cylinders or cases then the cam timing will be advanced. And because our cam gear is not adjustable we are in trouble! Although I did see a cam with an adjustable cam gear somewhere.
> > > > Mike, I can't see how you could be off one tooth on the cam chain and have any of the marks line up. If you know cam specs for this engine, then you could use a degree wheel and check the cam. Your teacher should be able to help you.
> > > > Lyle
> > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, misterpoopoohead@ wrote:
> > > > > From what I've been told the slot and the straight line are in the wrong place on some cams. They aren't serialized so apparently no way to identify except by looking at them. Sucks, don't it?
> > > > > Kev
> > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: brad fenn
> > > > > Sender:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:20:24
> > > > > To: > > > > Reply-To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> > > > > Its been a while since I had a 600 engine apart, but doesn't the cam have a slot
> > > > > cut in one end that can be seen through the camholder. And that slot should be
> > > > > straight up when at TDC.
> > > > > From: "misterpoopoohead@"
> > > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 11:06:27 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed
> > > > > correctly
> > > > > Dude. Some cams are marked wrong from the factory. Crazy, but apparently true.
> > > > > Kev
> > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > > > From: "Mega"
> > > > > Sender: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:11:01 -0000
> > > > > To:
> > > > > ReplyTo: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> > > > > Hi guys,
> > > > > So I got my engine back in the car today and sort of started it. It barely
> > > > > starts at all, and when it does, it runs really rough.
> > > > > I have to retard the timing as much as possible to get it to start. I'm
> > > > > wondering if I set the cam shaft correctly??
> > > > > I lined the engine belt pulley up with the "T" on the case, and checked to make
> > > > > sure my piston really was at TDC, and not at BDC.
> > > > > Then I put in the cam so that the line on the gear was perfectly level and flat.
> > > > > Put the chain on the cam, and installed the two cam shaft holders on the sides.
> > > > > Then I rotated the engine around a couple times with the cam chain tensioner
> > > > > installed, so there was no slack in the chain. When I lined the pulley up with
> > > > > the "T" again, the flat line was still flat like it should be. But kind of
> > > > > feels like the timing is not right.
> > > > > Tomorrow, I plan to get it started and put a timing light on the engine. But I
> > > > > don't know where the mark on the pulley should be when I point the timing light
> > > > > at it. Does anyone know where it should be??
> > > > > thanks a lot,
> > > > > Mike.

[lyletrudell]

Hi Brad, a few of the vintage Opel GT guys have also used the crank trigger system. They say it's the best way to control the spark.
I don't know anything about them.
Amazing what computers can do!
If you put the car on a dyno, you could map out the best advance for each rpm, wow!
Turbo! Have you started a post, any pictures?
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, brad fenn wrote:
> I am actually working on a crank trigger system that uses a crank sensor and
> then coil packs off a later model Jap. car. I haven't got it all figured out yet
> as my project stalled for a while. But some members of one of the car clubs I
> belong to are using the crank trigger set up on their BMW 2002s.and using an
> electronic control unit, so they can dial in their advance curve on a laptop.I
> am doing this on mine due to the turbo.
> From: Mega
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, July 28, 2010 10:10:17 AM
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed
> correctly and Coil question.....
> Thanks for the info about the notch on the cam shaft. I re-checked my timing
> using the notch on the cam and the mark on the belt drive wheel. The timing was
> right on. I actually got my car to start up and run yesterday. I simply messed
> with the points a little bit, and installed the rest of the exhaust, and used
> the choke a little.
> It ran pretty well for a while, but then it stopped sparking. A few moments
> later, my ignition coil litterally pooped and shot smoke and goo out of the side
> of it. I've ordered a new one.
> I'm curious what do most of you use for an ignition coil on your engines?? Mine
> is an aftermarket Accel Harley Super Coil, part number 140403S.
> Is that a good coil to use?? My engine ran ok with it before it exploded.
> thanks,
> Mike.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > Updated post, want the info to be as accurate as possible.
> > The slot should be the best spot to get cam orientation, it should also be in
> >alignment with the ignition locator pin. This is where the cam was located off
> >to grind it.
> > The other mark is a casting mark and it might not be right, it may have been
> >used for reference when the rough casting was being machined.
> > Problem area:
> > This Honda engine, like any over head cam design must be machined accuratly
> >from the factory for the height dimension between the crank centerline and cam
> >centerline! This dimension must be maintained!
> > If you or a past owner machined any material off the cam housing, head,
> >cylinders or cases then the cam timing will be "Retarded".
> > Also the gaskets must be the stock thickness.
> > If the timing is off using thicker/thinner gaskets is one way to adjust timing,
> >like Blake said. But you have to check cam timing first to adjust, or know what
> >machining has been done to the engine.
> > Mike, I can't see how you could be off one tooth on the cam chain and have any
> >of the marks line up. If you know cam specs for this engine, then you could use
> >a degree wheel and check the cam. Your teacher should be able to help you.
> > Lyle
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > Blake, your right. It will retard the timing...oops.
> > > Will change my post.
> > > Accuracy has everything to do with engines!
> > > Mill the cylinder base off square by .002" from the bores and see how it
> >runs.
> > > The actual distance is not important, but has to be a known accurate
> >dimension.
> > > Any motor that I mill or change, I degree the cam.
> > > Then you check the timing, disassemble, add gasket thickness like Blake said,
> >then reassemble and check.
> > > Most stuff I work on has adjustable cam gears.
> > > Mike, if the past owner machined anything or the chain & sprockets are worn
> >the cam timing would be off.
> > > Just degree it and go from there.
> > > Someone in this club must have done it before, maybe Blake.
> > > Of course this is not a race engine, so it will probably be close enough.
> > > Lyle
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, blake neilson
> >wrote:
> > > > Milling the head, or cylinders, or cases will RETARD the cam timing. And
> >milling accuracy has nothing to do with it. Only thicker (by the amount milled)
> >gaskets will compensate.
> > > > Blake
> > > > --- On Tue, 7/27/10, lyletrudell wrote:
> > > > From: lyletrudell
> > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed
> >correctly
> > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Tuesday, July 27, 2010, 3:01 PM
> > > > The slot should be the best spot to get cam orientation, it should
> >also be in alignment with the ignition locator pin.
> > > > This is where the cam was located off to grind it.
> > > > The other mark is a casting mark and it might not be right, it may have
> >been used for reference when the rough casting was being machined.
> > > > Problem area:
> > > > This Honda engine, like any over head cam design must be machined accuratly
> >for height between the crank centerline and cam centerline!
> > > > If you or a past owner machined any material off the cam housing, head,
> >cylinders or cases then the cam timing will be advanced. And because our cam
> >gear is not adjustable we are in trouble! Although I did see a cam with an
> >adjustable cam gear somewhere.
> > > > Mike, I can't see how you could be off one tooth on the cam chain and have
> >any of the marks line up. If you know cam specs for this engine, then you could
> >use a degree wheel and check the cam. Your teacher should be able to help you.
> > > > Lyle
> > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, misterpoopoohead@ wrote:
> > > > > From what I've been told the slot and the straight line are in the wrong
> >place on some cams. They aren't serialized so apparently no way to identify
> >except by looking at them. Sucks, don't it?
> > > > > Kev
> > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: brad fenn
> > > > > Sender:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:20:24
> > > > > To: > > > > Reply-To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed
> >correctly
> > > > > Its been a while since I had a 600 engine apart, but doesn't the cam have
> >a slot
> > > > > cut in one end that can be seen through the camholder. And that slot
> >should be
> > > > > straight up when at TDC.
> > > > > From: "misterpoopoohead@"
> > > > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 11:06:27 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed
> > > > > correctly
> > > > > Dude. Some cams are marked wrong from the factory. Crazy, but apparently
> >true.
> > > > > Kev
> > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > > > From: "Mega"
> > > > > Sender: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:11:01 -0000
> > > > > To:
> > > > > ReplyTo: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed
> >correctly
> > > > > Hi guys,
> > > > > So I got my engine back in the car today and sort of started it. It
> >barely
> > > > > starts at all, and when it does, it runs really rough.
> > > > > I have to retard the timing as much as possible to get it to start. I'm
> > > > > wondering if I set the cam shaft correctly??
> > > > > I lined the engine belt pulley up with the "T" on the case, and checked
> >to make
> > > > > sure my piston really was at TDC, and not at BDC.
> > > > > Then I put in the cam so that the line on the gear was perfectly level
> >and flat.
> > > > > Put the chain on the cam, and installed the two cam shaft holders on the
> >sides.
> > > > > Then I rotated the engine around a couple times with the cam chain
> >tensioner
> > > > > installed, so there was no slack in the chain. When I lined the pulley
> >up with
> > > > > the "T" again, the flat line was still flat like it should be. But kind
> >of
> > > > > feels like the timing is not right.
> > > > > Tomorrow, I plan to get it started and put a timing light on the engine.
> >But I
> > > > > don't know where the mark on the pulley should be when I point the timing
> >light
> > > > > at it. Does anyone know where it should be??
> > > > > thanks a lot,
> > > > > Mike.

[blake neilson]

My apologies for not being more clear in my response.
I am very much in favor of milling accuracy for any engine.  I just wanted to clarify that milling the head, cylinders, or case would require a thicker gasket to bring cam timing back to spec., regardless of how skillfully and accurate the machine work was performed.  That is why we always marked how much we removed from any components we resurfaced, so that the person building the engine could compensate as they saw fit.
I hope this clears up my point.
Blake

--- On
Wed, 7/28/10, lyletrudell

wrote:
> From: lyletrudell
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Not sure if my engine
> cam chain is timed correctly
> To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2010, 6:10 AM
> Blake, your right. It will retard the timing...oops.
> Will change my post.
> Accuracy has everything to do with engines!
> Mill the cylinder base off square by .002" from the bores and see how it runs.
> The actual distance is not important, but has to be a known accurate dimension.
> Any motor that I mill or change, I degree the cam.
> Then you check the timing, disassemble, add gasket thickness like Blake said, then reassemble and check.
> Most stuff I work on has adjustable cam gears.
> Mike, if the past owner machined anything or the chain & sprockets are worn the cam timing would be off.
> Just degree it and go from there.
> Someone in this club must have done it before, maybe Blake.
> Of course this is not a race engine, so it will probably be close enough.
> Lyle
> --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> , blake neilson wrote:
> > Milling the head, or cylinders, or cases will RETARD the cam timing.�  And milling accuracy has nothing to do with it. Only thicker (by the amount milled) gaskets will compensate.
> > Blake
> > --- On Tue, 7/27/10, lyletrudell wrote:
> > From: lyletrudell
> > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> > To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, July 27, 2010, 3:01 PM
> > The slot should be the best spot to get cam orientation, it should also be in alignment with the ignition locator pin.
> > This is where the cam was located off to grind it.
> > The other mark is a casting mark and it might not be right, it may have been used for reference when the rough casting was being machined.
> > Problem area:
> > This Honda engine, like any over head cam design must be machined accuratly for height between the crank centerline and cam centerline!
> > If you or a past owner machined any material off the cam housing, head, cylinders or cases then the cam timing will be advanced. And because our cam gear is not adjustable we are in trouble! Although I did see a cam with an adjustable cam gear somewhere.
> > Mike, I can't see how you could be off one tooth on the cam chain and have any of the marks line up. If you know cam specs for this engine, then you could use a degree wheel and check the cam. Your teacher should be able to help you.
> > Lyle
> > --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> , misterpoopoohead@ wrote:
> > > From what I've been told the slot and the straight line are in the wrong place on some cams. They aren't serialized so apparently no way to identify except by looking at them. Sucks, don't it?
> > > Kev
> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: brad fenn
> > > Sender:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:20:24
> > > To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > Reply-To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> > > Its been a while since I had a 600 engine apart, but doesn't the cam have a slot
> > > cut in one end that can be seen through the camholder. And that slot should be
> > > straight up when at TDC.
> > > From: "misterpoopoohead@"
> > > To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 11:06:27 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed
> > > correctly
> > > Dude. Some cams are marked wrong from the factory. Crazy, but apparently true.
> > > Kev
> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > From: "Mega"
> > > Sender: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:11:01 -0000
> > > To:
> > > ReplyTo: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> > > Hi guys,
> > > So I got my engine back in the car today and sort of started it. It barely
> > > starts at all, and when it does, it runs really rough.
> > > I have to retard the timing as much as possible to get it to start. I'm
> > > wondering if I set the cam shaft correctly??
> > > I lined the engine belt pulley up with the "T" on the case, and checked to make
> > > sure my piston really was at TDC, and not at BDC.
> > > Then I put in the cam so that the line on the gear was perfectly level and flat.
> > > Put the chain on the cam, and installed the two cam shaft holders on the sides.
> > > Then I rotated the engine around a couple times with the cam chain tensioner
> > > installed, so there was no slack in the chain. When I lined the pulley up with
> > > the "T" again, the flat line was still flat like it should be. But kind of
> > > feels like the timing is not right.
> > > Tomorrow, I plan to get it started and put a timing light on the engine. But I
> > > don't know where the mark on the pulley should be when I point the timing light
> > > at it. Does anyone know where it should be??
> > > thanks a lot,
> > > Mike.

[lyletrudell]

Blake, I hate writing, it's hard to write a couple lines of info and get your point across and all the info.
Not personal for sure.
The main thing is we agree and understand the Honda cam timing.
Hopefully we worded it right so someone else can figure it out.
I have read some of your posts, sounds like you have experience with these engines and mechanical things, great for us.
But, I don't know you or your back ground and you don't know mine.
So when I post info, it will be old news for you, but maybe something I just figured out.
It's nice having a group of Honda owners to throw ideas at and get help.
I will try to be careful how I word things.
OK, I hate writing, going back in the shop and machine something.
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, blake neilson wrote:
> My apologies for not being more clear in my response.
> I am very much in favor of milling accuracy for any engine.  I just wanted to clarify that milling the head, cylinders, or case would require a thicker gasket to bring cam timing back to spec., regardless of how skillfully and accurate the machine work was performed.  That is why we always marked how much we removed from any components we resurfaced, so that the person building the engine could compensate as they saw fit.
> I hope this clears up my point.
> Blake
> --- On Wed, 7/28/10, lyletrudell wrote:
> From: lyletrudell
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2010, 6:10 AM
> Blake, your right. It will retard the timing...oops.
> Will change my post.
> Accuracy has everything to do with engines!
> Mill the cylinder base off square by .002" from the bores and see how it runs.
> The actual distance is not important, but has to be a known accurate dimension.
> Any motor that I mill or change, I degree the cam.
> Then you check the timing, disassemble, add gasket thickness like Blake said, then reassemble and check.
> Most stuff I work on has adjustable cam gears.
> Mike, if the past owner machined anything or the chain & sprockets are worn the cam timing would be off.
> Just degree it and go from there.
> Someone in this club must have done it before, maybe Blake.
> Of course this is not a race engine, so it will probably be close enough.
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, blake neilson wrote:
> > Milling the head, or cylinders, or cases will RETARD the cam timing.  And milling accuracy has nothing to do with it. Only thicker (by the amount milled) gaskets will compensate.
> > Blake
> > --- On Tue, 7/27/10, lyletrudell wrote:
> > From: lyletrudell
> > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, July 27, 2010, 3:01 PM
> > The slot should be the best spot to get cam orientation, it should also be in alignment with the ignition locator pin.
> > This is where the cam was located off to grind it.
> > The other mark is a casting mark and it might not be right, it may have been used for reference when the rough casting was being machined.
> > Problem area:
> > This Honda engine, like any over head cam design must be machined accuratly for height between the crank centerline and cam centerline!
> > If you or a past owner machined any material off the cam housing, head, cylinders or cases then the cam timing will be advanced. And because our cam gear is not adjustable we are in trouble! Although I did see a cam with an adjustable cam gear somewhere.
> > Mike, I can't see how you could be off one tooth on the cam chain and have any of the marks line up. If you know cam specs for this engine, then you could use a degree wheel and check the cam. Your teacher should be able to help you.
> > Lyle
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, misterpoopoohead@ wrote:
> > > From what I've been told the slot and the straight line are in the wrong place on some cams. They aren't serialized so apparently no way to identify except by looking at them. Sucks, don't it?
> > > Kev
> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: brad fenn
> > > Sender:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:20:24
> > > To: > > Reply-To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> > > Its been a while since I had a 600 engine apart, but doesn't the cam have a slot
> > > cut in one end that can be seen through the camholder. And that slot should be
> > > straight up when at TDC.
> > > From: "misterpoopoohead@"
> > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 11:06:27 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed
> > > correctly
> > > Dude. Some cams are marked wrong from the factory. Crazy, but apparently true.
> > > Kev
> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > From: "Mega"
> > > Sender: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:11:01 -0000
> > > To:
> > > ReplyTo: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly
> > > Hi guys,
> > > So I got my engine back in the car today and sort of started it. It barely
> > > starts at all, and when it does, it runs really rough.
> > > I have to retard the timing as much as possible to get it to start. I'm
> > > wondering if I set the cam shaft correctly??
> > > I lined the engine belt pulley up with the "T" on the case, and checked to make
> > > sure my piston really was at TDC, and not at BDC.
> > > Then I put in the cam so that the line on the gear was perfectly level and flat.
> > > Put the chain on the cam, and installed the two cam shaft holders on the sides.
> > > Then I rotated the engine around a couple times with the cam chain tensioner
> > > installed, so there was no slack in the chain. When I lined the pulley up with
> > > the "T" again, the flat line was still flat like it should be. But kind of
> > > feels like the timing is not right.
> > > Tomorrow, I plan to get it started and put a timing light on the engine. But I
> > > don't know where the mark on the pulley should be when I point the timing light
> > > at it. Does anyone know where it should be??
> > > thanks a lot,
> > > Mike.

[friend]

�
Blake;
I have to agree, there is a lot of measurements necessary to keep any engine within factory specs.  In the case of the Honda 600, less rocker to camshaft clearance can be obtained by merely polishing the gasket surface of the cambox and using a thinner gasket.  While using a H219 cam chain, the roller width is increased to overcome any wear there may be between the cam sprocket teeth. (ref. Sedan Shop manual page 4.26)
However, using a thicker head gasket can create sealing flaws.
The fire ring thickness must be no greater than .002 above the gasket material to ensure sealing of the oil passages at the rear of the cylinders, head and cam box.   Any increase in the fire ring can cause sealing problems.  Some say this is over come by increasing the cylinder head torque.   Caution should be taken as over torqueing the head can cause cracking of the cambox and stripping the 6 mm bolt threads.
Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> blake
> neilson
> Sent:
> Friday, July 30, 2010 5:22 AM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> Re: [anzhonda600owners]
> Re: Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed
> correctly
> My apologies for not being more clear in my
> response.
> I am very much in favor of milling accuracy for
> any engine.  I just wanted to clarify that milling the head, > cylinders, or case would require a thicker gasket to bring cam timing > back to spec., regardless of how skillfully and accurate the machine > work was performed.  That is why we always marked how much we > removed from any components we resurfaced, so that the person building > the engine could compensate as they saw fit.
> I hope this
> clears up my point.
> Blake
> --- On
> Wed, 7/28/10,
> lyletrudell
>
> wrote:
> > From:
> > lyletrudell
> > Subject:
> > [anzhonda600owners] Re: Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed > > correctly > > To: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com > > Date:
> > Wednesday, July 28, 2010, 6:10 AM
> > Blake, your right. It will retard the timing...oops.
> > Will change
> > my post.
> > Accuracy has everything to do with engines!
> > Mill
> > the cylinder base off square by .002" from the bores and see how it > > runs.
> > The actual distance is not important, but has to be a known > > accurate dimension.
> > Any motor that I mill or change, I degree the
> > cam.
> > Then you check the timing, disassemble, add gasket thickness > > like Blake said, then reassemble and check.
> > Most stuff I work on
> > has adjustable cam gears.
> > Mike, if the past owner machined
> > anything or the chain & sprockets are worn the cam timing would be > > off.
> > Just degree it and go from there.
> > Someone in this club must
> > have done it before, maybe Blake.
> > Of course this is not a race
> > engine, so it will probably be close enough.
> > Lyle
> > --- In
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > ,
> > blake neilson wrote:
> > Milling the head, or cylinders, or cases will RETARD the cam > > timing.�  And milling accuracy has nothing to do with it. Only > > thicker (by the amount milled) gaskets will compensate.
> > Blake
> > > --- On Tue, 7/27/10, lyletrudell
> > wrote:
> > > From: lyletrudell
> >
> > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re:
> > Not sure if my engine cam chain is timed correctly > > > To:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Tuesday, July 27, 2010, 3:01 PM
> > > The slot should be
> > the best spot to get cam orientation, it should also be in alignment > > with the ignition locator pin.
> > > This is where the cam
> > was located off to grind it.
> > > The other mark is a
> > casting mark and it might not be right, it may have been used for > > reference when the rough casting was being machined.
> > Problem area:
> > > This Honda engine, like any over head
> > cam design must be machined accuratly for height between the crank > > centerline and cam centerline!
> > > If you or a past owner
> > machined any material off the cam housing, head, cylinders or cases > > then the cam timing will be advanced. And because our cam gear is not > > adjustable we are in trouble! Although I did see a cam with an > > adjustable cam gear somewhere.
> > Mike, I can't see how you could be off one tooth on the cam chain and > > have any of the marks line up. If you know cam specs for this engine, > > then you could use a degree wheel and check the cam. Your teacher > > should be able to help you.
> > > Lyle
> > > --- In
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > ,
> > misterpoopoohead@ wrote:
> > From what I've been told the slot and the straight line are in the > > wrong place on some cams. They aren't serialized so apparently no way > > to identify except by looking at them. Sucks, don't it?
> > > > Kev
> > > > Sent
> > from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From:
> > brad fenn
> > > > Sender:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:20:24
> > To: > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Reply-To:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine > > cam chain is timed correctly
> > > Its been a while since I had a 600 engine apart, but doesn't the > > cam have a slot
> > > > cut in one end that can be seen
> > through the camholder. And that slot should be
> > straight up when at TDC.
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: "misterpoopoohead@ "
> > > > To:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 11:06:27 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam chain > > is timed
> > > > correctly
> > > > Dude. Some cams are
> > marked wrong from the factory. Crazy, but apparently true.
> > > > Kev
> > > > Sent
> > from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: "Mega"
> > > > Sender: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:11:01 -0000
> > > > To:
> > > > ReplyTo: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Not sure if my engine cam > > chain is timed correctly
> > Hi guys,
> > > > So I got my
> > engine back in the car today and sort of started it. It barely
> > > > starts at all, and when it does, it runs really
> > rough.
> > > > I have to retard
> > the timing as much as possible to get it to start. I'm
> > > > wondering if I set the cam shaft correctly??
> > > > I lined the engine belt pulley up
> > with the "T" on the case, and checked to make
> > sure my piston really was at TDC, and not at BDC.
> > > > Then I put in the cam so that the line on
> > the gear was perfectly level and flat.
> > > > Put the
> > chain on the cam, and installed the two cam shaft holders on the > > sides.
> > > > Then I rotated the engine around a
> > couple times with the cam chain tensioner
> > installed, so there was no slack in the chain. When I lined the pulley > > up with
> > > > the "T" again, the flat line was still
> > flat like it should be. But kind of
> > > > feels like
> > the timing is not right.
> > Tomorrow, I plan to get it started and put a timing light on the > > engine. But I
> > > > don't know where the mark on the
> > pulley should be when I point the timing light
> > at it. Does anyone know where it should be??
> > > > thanks a lot,
> > Mike.