more on Metal shavings in my motor!

Archived posts from the ANZ Honda 600 Owners Yahoo Group
Post Reply
zinc2u
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:45 am

more on Metal shavings in my motor!

Post by zinc2u »

Hi Mike,
   I was looking at your pictures and here are my comments on them;
1)  the metal shavings look like they are from under the transmission gears....is this where you are finding them?  If so,  it sounds like something broke and was ground up by the gears or, perhaps, you had a bearing fail in the gear train.  Take a look at the oil pump screen and see if it is clogged with metal.  A clogged screen will cause oil starvation.
2)  the oiler for the drive chain is damaged and needs replacing
3)  the cam chain slipper (the long black piece) looks like it is damaged and needs replacing.   Is metal showing on the face of this slipper......if so,  it is definitely worn out.
4)  the cam chain tensioner roller and its center bearing holder look normal for an engine with 70K+ miles.  If the roller is showing cracking,  it needs replacing.  If it isn't cracked,  you could reuse this part but it depends on what else you do with the engine.  If you are doing a total rebuild and spending lots of money on other new parts, then you do want to replace this tensioner roller.
5)  if that slipper really is damaged and worn to metal,  you probably have a stretched cam chain and the cam chain tensioner (the plunger which pushes on the tensioner roller) may not be working properly.  The shop manual tells you how to check these items.  Unless you know when the cam chain was last replaced,  you should go ahead an replace it.
6)  the primary drive and its dampers should be checked.  The dampers will shrink, get hard, and crack.  They should already be in the hard stage (the engine looks like it has lots of mileage on it).  The shop manual gives the specs on this and details how to check it.  When you put the assembly together,  the fit should be snug. When the dampers shrink too much,  the assembly exhibits free play ..... you will be able to wiggle it back and forth.
It is unfortunate the engine was full of metal particles.  You are going to have to spend a lot of time inspecting all the gears and bearings with a microscope looking for damage.  The crankshaft has an end bearing which slides off and you can look at these bearings.  If you see any damage on these bearings,  there is a good chance the other bearings are also damaged since they saw the same oil.  If the metal shavings are aluminum,  the problem is not as serious but if there is iron in the shavings, that can put small scratches on the bearings and while the engine may work fine now,  it does cause the engine to start failing and you may not see the effect for 10,000 miles.
If you kept any of the motor oil which was in the engine,  you could stick a magnet in it and see if any iron particles attach to it.  The better way is to have the oil analyzed for its iron content which gives an immediate indication of how bad things might be.  You probably are not interested in getting your oil analyzed but if you do,  check the aviation yellow pages.  Oil analysis is popular on planes (large and small) because it lets them detect problems well before the engine fails.
    See what it needs and then you can determine whether you want to rebuild it or buy a used engine.  You may also want to take a class in machine tool operations (learning how to use a lathe, milling machine, surface grinders, etc) so you can make or recondition your own parts.
hope you are learning lots,
Dale
> Thanks
> to someone's nice post about flywheel/rotor removal, and Dale's info about the > internals of the gear box, I have now opened up the engine case. Everything > looked pretty good, except that I had a LOT of metal shavings sitting in the > bottom of the case.
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... IM0799.jpg > I > didn't have time to start taking gears out yet, so I haven't found a for-sure > source of all the shredded metal. One possible source is the guide that the > cam chain slides on. Both the cam chain tensioning wheel and the cam guide are > severely eaten up, and the long skinny guide that runs up the length of the > chain is missing a little bit of metal on it. I don't know how much metal it's > missing since I don't know what it looked like originally. But here's a > picture of the guide and the tensioning wheel:
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... IM0798.jpg > I > don't know for sure if the guide and wheel are where I'm getting my metal > flakes, but I do know for sure that I'm going to need a new guide and > wheel.
> I've also been finding very interesting parts, the likes of > which I've never seen in any other engine. Like this Drive Sprocket Dampener > thingy ma bobber:
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... IM0793.jpg > It's > got these little plastic things inbetween the two drive pieces, I guess to > help reduce vibrations and stuff. Very fascinating. Is this something that > wears out and has to be replaced very often? Mine seams ok to me, but I'm not > totally sure what ok is.
> Also: the little plastic thing that apparently
> sprays oil onto my drive chain is a little bit broken. I might be able to > re-use it, but if a new one is out there, I'd prefer to have it in my > engine:
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... IM0800.jpg > Are > regular parts stores, or honda dealerships a good place to go for stuff like > this?? Or is there a secret website where I can find Honda 600 internal engine > parts? Or do I just need to be very careful with my old one, since it's almost > unreplaceable. I've seen some of this stuff on Ebay, but I'd much rather get > new than used.
> thanks very much,
> Mike.
Mega
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:25 am

Re: more on Metal shavings in my motor!

Post by Mega »

Dale, I think you're right about something being ground up in the transmission. My chain slipper does have metal showing at the top of it. I actually found two cam chain slippers in my engine. I don't think this is normal.
One slipper was located in the right place, but was only held in place by one slipper pin. I'm not sure where the other slipper was, but it seams as though it magically appeared on my work bench when I seperated the engine case. I think it might have been laying in the bottom of the engine block. Possibly a previous wanna-be mechanic dropped it down there, and instead of getting it out, simply got another one. I have no idea, and frankly I'm rather baffled at where it came from. I took pictures of the two slippers:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... 0808-1.jpg
Both of them are severly worn, and one of them was even missing a little bit of metal from the top of it. This metal may have been what go chewed up in the gears. The metal shavings were both iron and alluminum. I checked with a magnet.
My tensioner roller is not only cracking like you suggested, but it's basically dissentagrating on one side. I will most definitely need a new one. When I removed the bolt containing the spring which pushes on the tension roller, it had a long screw sticking out of the end of it. Apparently some one was trying to make it push harder on the tension roller and increase the cam chain tension.
The small set of primary drive dampeners did have some play in it. None of the little plastic pieces are broken or cracked yet, but they are rather hard, and probably shrunk a little bit.
I did remove both bearings on each end of the crankshaft and they look ok. There were very few pieces of metal on the oil screen and so I don't think any entered the oil passages or the bearings. The filter was yucky, but contained no metal pieces.
I am wanting to do a full rebuild and I'd like to buy new parts where ever possible. I'll continue to check all the links on Steve's page. Looks like I just found new piston rings from it. Now I just need seals, cam wheels and slipper, and gaskets. I'm also going to try the motorcycle parts store tomorrow.
thanks, and I am learning an awful lot.
-Mike.
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, goinhm@... wrote:
> Hi Mike,
> I was looking at your pictures and here are my comments on them;
> 1) the metal shavings look like they are from under the transmission
> gears....is this where you are finding them? If so, it sounds like something
> broke and was ground up by the gears or, perhaps, you had a bearing fail in
> the gear train. Take a look at the oil pump screen and see if it is
> clogged with metal. A clogged screen will cause oil starvation.
> 2) the oiler for the drive chain is damaged and needs replacing
> 3) the cam chain slipper (the long black piece) looks like it is damaged
> and needs replacing. Is metal showing on the face of this slipper......if
> so, it is definitely worn out.
> 4) the cam chain tensioner roller and its center bearing holder look
> normal for an engine with 70K+ miles. If the roller is showing cracking, it
> needs replacing. If it isn't cracked, you could reuse this part but it
> depends on what else you do with the engine. If you are doing a total rebuild
> and spending lots of money on other new parts, then you do want to
> replace this tensioner roller.
> 5) if that slipper really is damaged and worn to metal, you probably
> have a stretched cam chain and the cam chain tensioner (the plunger which
> pushes on the tensioner roller) may not be working properly. The shop manual
> tells you how to check these items. Unless you know when the cam chain was
> last replaced, you should go ahead an replace it.
> 6) the primary drive and its dampers should be checked. The dampers will
> shrink, get hard, and crack. They should already be in the hard stage
> (the engine looks like it has lots of mileage on it). The shop manual gives
> the specs on this and details how to check it. When you put the assembly
> together, the fit should be snug. When the dampers shrink too much, the
> assembly exhibits free play ..... you will be able to wiggle it back and forth.
> It is unfortunate the engine was full of metal particles. You are going
> to have to spend a lot of time inspecting all the gears and bearings with a
> microscope looking for damage. The crankshaft has an end bearing which
> slides off and you can look at these bearings. If you see any damage on these
> bearings, there is a good chance the other bearings are also damaged
> since they saw the same oil. If the metal shavings are aluminum, the problem
> is not as serious but if there is iron in the shavings, that can put small
> scratches on the bearings and while the engine may work fine now, it does
> cause the engine to start failing and you may not see the effect for 10,000
> miles.
> If you kept any of the motor oil which was in the engine, you could stick
> a magnet in it and see if any iron particles attach to it. The better way
> is to have the oil analyzed for its iron content which gives an immediate
> indication of how bad things might be. You probably are not interested in
> getting your oil analyzed but if you do, check the aviation yellow pages.
> Oil analysis is popular on planes (large and small) because it lets them
> detect problems well before the engine fails.
> See what it needs and then you can determine whether you want to
> rebuild it or buy a used engine. You may also want to take a class in machine
> tool operations (learning how to use a lathe, milling machine, surface
> grinders, etc) so you can make or recondition your own parts.
> hope you are learning lots,
> Dale
> Thanks to someone's nice post about flywheel/rotor removal, and Dale's
> info about the internals of the gear box, I have now opened up the engine
> case. Everything looked pretty good, except that I had a LOT of metal shavings
> sitting in the bottom of the case.
> _
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0799
> .jpg_
> (
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... IM0799.jpg)
> I didn't have time to start taking gears out yet, so I haven't found a
> for-sure source of all the shredded metal. One possible source is the guide
> that the cam chain slides on. Both the cam chain tensioning wheel and the cam
> guide are severely eaten up, and the long skinny guide that runs up the
> length of the chain is missing a little bit of metal on it. I don't know how
> much metal it's missing since I don't know what it looked like originally.
> But here's a picture of the guide and the tensioning wheel:
> _
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0798
> .jpg_
> (
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... IM0798.jpg)
> I don't know for sure if the guide and wheel are where I'm getting my
> metal flakes, but I do know for sure that I'm going to need a new guide and
> wheel.
> I've also been finding very interesting parts, the likes of which I've
> never seen in any other engine. Like this Drive Sprocket Dampener thingy ma
> bobber:
> _
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0793
> .jpg_
> (
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... IM0793.jpg)
> It's got these little plastic things inbetween the two drive pieces, I
> guess to help reduce vibrations and stuff. Very fascinating. Is this something
> that wears out and has to be replaced very often? Mine seams ok to me, but
> I'm not totally sure what ok is.
> Also: the little plastic thing that apparently sprays oil onto my drive
> chain is a little bit broken. I might be able to re-use it, but if a new one
> is out there, I'd prefer to have it in my engine:
> _
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0800
> .jpg_
> (
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... IM0800.jpg)
> Are regular parts stores, or honda dealerships a good place to go for
> stuff like this?? Or is there a secret website where I can find Honda 600
> internal engine parts? Or do I just need to be very careful with my old one,
> since it's almost unreplaceable. I've seen some of this stuff on Ebay, but I'd
> much rather get new than used.
> thanks very much,
> Mike.
lyletrudell
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:54 pm

Re: more on Metal shavings in my motor!

Post by lyletrudell »

Mike, I have my engine out of my Orange coupe also. It was running good, just doing a "frame" off restore on the body. I will be pulling my clutch and side cover off to check the oil pump and drive assembly, your posts will help me, since I have never had one of these things apart.
Seeing the stuff in your crankcase has me worried, I might pull the cylinders to check the chain guides and rollers.
Let me know what you find for parts sources.
I could make replacement wheels but I would rather buy them!
Thanks
Lyle
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Mega" wrote:
> Dale, I think you're right about something being ground up in the transmission. My chain slipper does have metal showing at the top of it. I actually found two cam chain slippers in my engine. I don't think this is normal.
> One slipper was located in the right place, but was only held in place by one slipper pin. I'm not sure where the other slipper was, but it seams as though it magically appeared on my work bench when I seperated the engine case. I think it might have been laying in the bottom of the engine block. Possibly a previous wanna-be mechanic dropped it down there, and instead of getting it out, simply got another one. I have no idea, and frankly I'm rather baffled at where it came from. I took pictures of the two slippers:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... 0808-1.jpg
> Both of them are severly worn, and one of them was even missing a little bit of metal from the top of it. This metal may have been what go chewed up in the gears. The metal shavings were both iron and alluminum. I checked with a magnet.
> My tensioner roller is not only cracking like you suggested, but it's basically dissentagrating on one side. I will most definitely need a new one. When I removed the bolt containing the spring which pushes on the tension roller, it had a long screw sticking out of the end of it. Apparently some one was trying to make it push harder on the tension roller and increase the cam chain tension.
> The small set of primary drive dampeners did have some play in it. None of the little plastic pieces are broken or cracked yet, but they are rather hard, and probably shrunk a little bit.
> I did remove both bearings on each end of the crankshaft and they look ok. There were very few pieces of metal on the oil screen and so I don't think any entered the oil passages or the bearings. The filter was yucky, but contained no metal pieces.
> I am wanting to do a full rebuild and I'd like to buy new parts where ever possible. I'll continue to check all the links on Steve's page. Looks like I just found new piston rings from it. Now I just need seals, cam wheels and slipper, and gaskets. I'm also going to try the motorcycle parts store tomorrow.
> thanks, and I am learning an awful lot.
> -Mike.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, goinhm@ wrote:
> > Hi Mike,
> > I was looking at your pictures and here are my comments on them;
> > 1) the metal shavings look like they are from under the transmission
> > gears....is this where you are finding them? If so, it sounds like something
> > broke and was ground up by the gears or, perhaps, you had a bearing fail in
> > the gear train. Take a look at the oil pump screen and see if it is
> > clogged with metal. A clogged screen will cause oil starvation.
> > 2) the oiler for the drive chain is damaged and needs replacing
> > 3) the cam chain slipper (the long black piece) looks like it is damaged
> > and needs replacing. Is metal showing on the face of this slipper......if
> > so, it is definitely worn out.
> > 4) the cam chain tensioner roller and its center bearing holder look
> > normal for an engine with 70K+ miles. If the roller is showing cracking, it
> > needs replacing. If it isn't cracked, you could reuse this part but it
> > depends on what else you do with the engine. If you are doing a total rebuild
> > and spending lots of money on other new parts, then you do want to
> > replace this tensioner roller.
> > 5) if that slipper really is damaged and worn to metal, you probably
> > have a stretched cam chain and the cam chain tensioner (the plunger which
> > pushes on the tensioner roller) may not be working properly. The shop manual
> > tells you how to check these items. Unless you know when the cam chain was
> > last replaced, you should go ahead an replace it.
> > 6) the primary drive and its dampers should be checked. The dampers will
> > shrink, get hard, and crack. They should already be in the hard stage
> > (the engine looks like it has lots of mileage on it). The shop manual gives
> > the specs on this and details how to check it. When you put the assembly
> > together, the fit should be snug. When the dampers shrink too much, the
> > assembly exhibits free play ..... you will be able to wiggle it back and forth.
> > It is unfortunate the engine was full of metal particles. You are going
> > to have to spend a lot of time inspecting all the gears and bearings with a
> > microscope looking for damage. The crankshaft has an end bearing which
> > slides off and you can look at these bearings. If you see any damage on these
> > bearings, there is a good chance the other bearings are also damaged
> > since they saw the same oil. If the metal shavings are aluminum, the problem
> > is not as serious but if there is iron in the shavings, that can put small
> > scratches on the bearings and while the engine may work fine now, it does
> > cause the engine to start failing and you may not see the effect for 10,000
> > miles.
> > If you kept any of the motor oil which was in the engine, you could stick
> > a magnet in it and see if any iron particles attach to it. The better way
> > is to have the oil analyzed for its iron content which gives an immediate
> > indication of how bad things might be. You probably are not interested in
> > getting your oil analyzed but if you do, check the aviation yellow pages.
> > Oil analysis is popular on planes (large and small) because it lets them
> > detect problems well before the engine fails.
> > See what it needs and then you can determine whether you want to
> > rebuild it or buy a used engine. You may also want to take a class in machine
> > tool operations (learning how to use a lathe, milling machine, surface
> > grinders, etc) so you can make or recondition your own parts.
> > hope you are learning lots,
> > Dale
> > Thanks to someone's nice post about flywheel/rotor removal, and Dale's
> > info about the internals of the gear box, I have now opened up the engine
> > case. Everything looked pretty good, except that I had a LOT of metal shavings
> > sitting in the bottom of the case.
> > _
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0799
> > .jpg_
> > (
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... IM0799.jpg)
> > I didn't have time to start taking gears out yet, so I haven't found a
> > for-sure source of all the shredded metal. One possible source is the guide
> > that the cam chain slides on. Both the cam chain tensioning wheel and the cam
> > guide are severely eaten up, and the long skinny guide that runs up the
> > length of the chain is missing a little bit of metal on it. I don't know how
> > much metal it's missing since I don't know what it looked like originally.
> > But here's a picture of the guide and the tensioning wheel:
> > _
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0798
> > .jpg_
> > (
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... IM0798.jpg)
> > I don't know for sure if the guide and wheel are where I'm getting my
> > metal flakes, but I do know for sure that I'm going to need a new guide and
> > wheel.
> > I've also been finding very interesting parts, the likes of which I've
> > never seen in any other engine. Like this Drive Sprocket Dampener thingy ma
> > bobber:
> > _
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0793
> > .jpg_
> > (
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... IM0793.jpg)
> > It's got these little plastic things inbetween the two drive pieces, I
> > guess to help reduce vibrations and stuff. Very fascinating. Is this something
> > that wears out and has to be replaced very often? Mine seams ok to me, but
> > I'm not totally sure what ok is.
> > Also: the little plastic thing that apparently sprays oil onto my drive
> > chain is a little bit broken. I might be able to re-use it, but if a new one
> > is out there, I'd prefer to have it in my engine:
> > _
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0800
> > .jpg_
> > (
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... IM0800.jpg)
> > Are regular parts stores, or honda dealerships a good place to go for
> > stuff like this?? Or is there a secret website where I can find Honda 600
> > internal engine parts? Or do I just need to be very careful with my old one,
> > since it's almost unreplaceable. I've seen some of this stuff on Ebay, but I'd
> > much rather get new than used.
> > thanks very much,
> > Mike.
friend
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:54 pm

Re: more on Metal shavings in my motor!

Post by friend »

Mega;
It sounds/looks like your engine was put back together once or twice before and who ever did the work didn't separate the cases has you have.
In the past, I pulled a couple of engines apart that had the same amount of metal chips as your engine is showing.  Question - what was in the oil filter and under the oil pump screen?
If they were clean then it's possible that these chips didn't come from this time around.
Just a thought
Bill
Mega
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:25 am

Re: more on Metal shavings in my motor!

Post by Mega »

Bill,
The oil filter was dirty, but didn't have anything serious in it. The only thing that I found under my oil screen was pieces of silicone gasket material. Almost all the block threads for the bolts which hold the cam housing in place were stripped, so some one had put silicone sealer everywhere to try to stop the massive oil leaks resulting from the cam housing not being very secure. Looks like I'll be getting a lot of Heli-Coil practice in.
Fortunately, there weren't any metal pieces in the oil screen or in the oil filter, so I don't think any metal pieces got into my bearings and stuff.
Atleast, that's what I'm hoping.
Mike.
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> Mega;
> It sounds/looks like your engine was put back together once or twice
> before and who ever did the work didn't separate the cases has you have.
> In the past, I pulled a couple of engines apart that had the same amount
> of metal chips as your engine is showing. Question - what was in the oil
> filter and under the oil pump screen?
> If they were clean then it's possible that these chips didn't come from
> this time around.
> Just a thought
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Mega
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 1:53 PM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: more on Metal shavings in my motor!
> Dale, I think you're right about something being ground up in the
> transmission. My chain slipper does have metal showing at the top of it. I
> actually found two cam chain slippers in my engine. I don't think this is
> normal.
> One slipper was located in the right place, but was only held in place by
> one slipper pin. I'm not sure where the other slipper was, but it seams as
> though it magically appeared on my work bench when I seperated the engine
> case. I think it might have been laying in the bottom of the engine block.
> Possibly a previous wanna-be mechanic dropped it down there, and instead of
> getting it out, simply got another one. I have no idea, and frankly I'm
> rather baffled at where it came from. I took pictures of the two slippers:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... /HPIM0808-
> 1.jpg
> Both of them are severly worn, and one of them was even missing a little
> bit of metal from the top of it. This metal may have been what go chewed up
> in the gears. The metal shavings were both iron and alluminum. I checked
> with a magnet.
> My tensioner roller is not only cracking like you suggested, but it's
> basically dissentagrating on one side. I will most definitely need a new
> one. When I removed the bolt containing the spring which pushes on the
> tension roller, it had a long screw sticking out of the end of it.
> Apparently some one was trying to make it push harder on the tension roller
> and increase the cam chain tension.
> The small set of primary drive dampeners did have some play in it. None of
> the little plastic pieces are broken or cracked yet, but they are rather
> hard, and probably shrunk a little bit.
> I did remove both bearings on each end of the crankshaft and they look ok.
> There were very few pieces of metal on the oil screen and so I don't think
> any entered the oil passages or the bearings. The filter was yucky, but
> contained no metal pieces.
> I am wanting to do a full rebuild and I'd like to buy new parts where ever
> possible. I'll continue to check all the links on Steve's page. Looks like I
> just found new piston rings from it. Now I just need seals, cam wheels and
> slipper, and gaskets. I'm also going to try the motorcycle parts store
> tomorrow.
> thanks, and I am learning an awful lot.
> -Mike.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, goinhm@ wrote:
> > Hi Mike,
> > I was looking at your pictures and here are my comments on them;
> > 1) the metal shavings look like they are from under the transmission
> > gears....is this where you are finding them? If so, it sounds like
> something
> > broke and was ground up by the gears or, perhaps, you had a bearing fail
> in
> > the gear train. Take a look at the oil pump screen and see if it is
> > clogged with metal. A clogged screen will cause oil starvation.
> > 2) the oiler for the drive chain is damaged and needs replacing
> > 3) the cam chain slipper (the long black piece) looks like it is damaged
> > and needs replacing. Is metal showing on the face of this
> slipper......if
> > so, it is definitely worn out.
> > 4) the cam chain tensioner roller and its center bearing holder look
> > normal for an engine with 70K+ miles. If the roller is showing cracking,
> it
> > needs replacing. If it isn't cracked, you could reuse this part but it
> > depends on what else you do with the engine. If you are doing a total
> rebuild
> > and spending lots of money on other new parts, then you do want to
> > replace this tensioner roller.
> > 5) if that slipper really is damaged and worn to metal, you probably
> > have a stretched cam chain and the cam chain tensioner (the plunger
> which
> > pushes on the tensioner roller) may not be working properly. The shop
> manual
> > tells you how to check these items. Unless you know when the cam chain
> was
> > last replaced, you should go ahead an replace it.
> > 6) the primary drive and its dampers should be checked. The dampers will
> > shrink, get hard, and crack. They should already be in the hard stage
> > (the engine looks like it has lots of mileage on it). The shop manual
> gives
> > the specs on this and details how to check it. When you put the assembly
> > together, the fit should be snug. When the dampers shrink too much, the
> > assembly exhibits free play ..... you will be able to wiggle it back and
> forth.
> > It is unfortunate the engine was full of metal particles. You are going
> > to have to spend a lot of time inspecting all the gears and bearings
> with a
> > microscope looking for damage. The crankshaft has an end bearing which
> > slides off and you can look at these bearings. If you see any damage on
> these
> > bearings, there is a good chance the other bearings are also damaged
> > since they saw the same oil. If the metal shavings are aluminum, the
> problem
> > is not as serious but if there is iron in the shavings, that can put
> small
> > scratches on the bearings and while the engine may work fine now, it
> does
> > cause the engine to start failing and you may not see the effect for
> 10,000
> > miles.
> > If you kept any of the motor oil which was in the engine, you could
> stick
> > a magnet in it and see if any iron particles attach to it. The better
> way
> > is to have the oil analyzed for its iron content which gives an
> immediate
> > indication of how bad things might be. You probably are not interested
> in
> > getting your oil analyzed but if you do, check the aviation yellow
> pages.
> > Oil analysis is popular on planes (large and small) because it lets them
> > detect problems well before the engine fails.
> > See what it needs and then you can determine whether you want to
> > rebuild it or buy a used engine. You may also want to take a class in
> machine
> > tool operations (learning how to use a lathe, milling machine, surface
> > grinders, etc) so you can make or recondition your own parts.
> > hope you are learning lots,
> > Dale
> > Thanks to someone's nice post about flywheel/rotor removal, and Dale's
> > info about the internals of the gear box, I have now opened up the
> engine
> > case. Everything looked pretty good, except that I had a LOT of metal
> shavings
> > sitting in the bottom of the case.
> _
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0799
> > .jpg_
> (
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0799
> .jpg)
> > I didn't have time to start taking gears out yet, so I haven't found a
> > for-sure source of all the shredded metal. One possible source is the
> guide
> > that the cam chain slides on. Both the cam chain tensioning wheel and
> the cam
> > guide are severely eaten up, and the long skinny guide that runs up the
> > length of the chain is missing a little bit of metal on it. I don't know
> how
> > much metal it's missing since I don't know what it looked like
> originally.
> > But here's a picture of the guide and the tensioning wheel:
> _
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0798
> > .jpg_
> (
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0798
> .jpg)
> > I don't know for sure if the guide and wheel are where I'm getting my
> > metal flakes, but I do know for sure that I'm going to need a new guide
> and
> > wheel.
> > I've also been finding very interesting parts, the likes of which I've
> > never seen in any other engine. Like this Drive Sprocket Dampener thingy
> ma
> > bobber:
> _
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0793
> > .jpg_
> (
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0793
> .jpg)
> > It's got these little plastic things inbetween the two drive pieces, I
> > guess to help reduce vibrations and stuff. Very fascinating. Is this
> something
> > that wears out and has to be replaced very often? Mine seams ok to me,
> but
> > I'm not totally sure what ok is.
> > Also: the little plastic thing that apparently sprays oil onto my drive
> > chain is a little bit broken. I might be able to re-use it, but if a new
> one
> > is out there, I'd prefer to have it in my engine:
> _
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0800
> > .jpg_
> (
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0800
> .jpg)
> > Are regular parts stores, or honda dealerships a good place to go for
> > stuff like this?? Or is there a secret website where I can find Honda
> 600
> > internal engine parts? Or do I just need to be very careful with my old
> one,
> > since it's almost unreplaceable. I've seen some of this stuff on Ebay,
> but I'd
> > much rather get new than used.
> > thanks very much,
> > Mike.
friend
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:54 pm

Re: more on Metal shavings in my motor!

Post by friend »

Hi Mike;
Yep, I would pull the crank and use a plastic bottle with a small spout to push solvent into it, move the bearings and see if any chips come out.  Then blow it out with compressed air and use the same type of bottle to fill it with 10W30 oil.  See if any thing comes out.   The check for a rod knock is to fill the bearings including the rod bearings and use a small hammer to lightly tap the back side of the rod.  They should both sound the same.  If there is a difference it should be with the drive chain side of the crankshaft (just seems to go out first).
My thoughts on the chips is that it is from a past catastrophic event, and the engine was never cleaned properly.  If the crankshaft seems ok, then check the ball bearings on the transmission shafts.  And, yes, you know which one is going to go first - the drive chain side.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Mega
> Sent:
> Monday, June 21, 2010 10:18 AM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> [anzhonda600owners] Re:
> more on Metal shavings in my motor!
> Bill,
> The oil filter was dirty, but didn't have anything serious in it.
> The only thing that I found under my oil screen was pieces of silicone gasket > material. Almost all the block threads for the bolts which hold the cam > housing in place were stripped, so some one had put silicone sealer everywhere > to try to stop the massive oil leaks resulting from the cam housing not being > very secure. Looks like I'll be getting a lot of Heli-Coil practice > in.
> Fortunately, there weren't any metal pieces in the oil screen or in the > oil filter, so I don't think any metal pieces got into my bearings and > stuff.
> Atleast, that's what I'm hoping.
> Mike.
> --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ,
> wrote:
> > Mega;
> > It
> sounds/looks like your engine was put back together once or twice
> before and who ever did the work didn't separate the cases has you > have.
> > In the past, I pulled a couple of engines apart that
> had the same amount
> > of metal chips as your engine is showing. Question
> - what was in the oil
> > filter and under the oil pump screen?
> > If they were clean then it's possible that these chips didn't come > from > > this time around.
> > Just a
> thought
> > Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ]On
> Behalf Of Mega
> > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 1:53 PM
> > To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: more on Metal shavings in my motor!
> > Dale, I think you're right about something
> being ground up in the
> > transmission. My chain slipper does have metal
> showing at the top of it. I
> > actually found two cam chain slippers in
> my engine. I don't think this is
> > normal.
> > One slipper was
> located in the right place, but was only held in place by > > one slipper > pin. I'm not sure where the other slipper was, but it seams as > > though > it magically appeared on my work bench when I seperated the engine
> case. I think it might have been laying in the bottom of the engine > block.
> > Possibly a previous wanna-be mechanic dropped it down there, > and instead of > > getting it out, simply got another one. I have no idea, > and frankly I'm > > rather baffled at where it came from. I took pictures > of the two slippers:
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... /HPIM0808-
> 1.jpg
> > Both of them are severly worn, and one of them was even missing > a little > > bit of metal from the top of it. This metal may have been > what go chewed up > > in the gears. The metal shavings were both iron and > alluminum. I checked > > with a magnet.
> > My tensioner
> roller is not only cracking like you suggested, but it's > > basically > dissentagrating on one side. I will most definitely need a new > > one.
> When I removed the bolt containing the spring which pushes on the
> tension roller, it had a long screw sticking out of the end of it.
> Apparently some one was trying to make it push harder on the tension > roller > > and increase the cam chain tension.
> > The small
> set of primary drive dampeners did have some play in it. None of > > the > little plastic pieces are broken or cracked yet, but they are rather
> hard, and probably shrunk a little bit.
> > I did remove both
> bearings on each end of the crankshaft and they look ok.
> > There were
> very few pieces of metal on the oil screen and so I don't think > > any > entered the oil passages or the bearings. The filter was yucky, but
> contained no metal pieces.
> > I am wanting to do a full rebuild
> and I'd like to buy new parts where ever
> > possible. I'll continue to
> check all the links on Steve's page. Looks like I
> > just found new
> piston rings from it. Now I just need seals, cam wheels and > > slipper, > and gaskets. I'm also going to try the motorcycle parts store
> tomorrow.
> > thanks, and I am learning an awful lot.
> -Mike.
> > --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ,
> goinhm@ wrote:
> > > Hi Mike,
> > > I was looking at your pictures and here are my comments on > them;
> > > 1) the metal shavings look like they are from
> under the transmission
> > > gears....is this where you are finding
> them? If so, it sounds like
> > something
> > > broke and was
> ground up by the gears or, perhaps, you had a bearing fail > > in
> > the gear train. Take a look at the oil pump screen and see if it > is > > > clogged with metal. A clogged screen will cause oil > starvation.
> > > 2) the oiler for the drive chain is
> damaged and needs replacing
> > > 3) the cam chain slipper
> (the long black piece) looks like it is damaged
> > > and needs
> replacing. Is metal showing on the face of this
> slipper......if
> > > so, it is definitely worn out.
> > > 4) the cam chain tensioner roller and its center bearing > holder look > > > normal for an engine with 70K+ miles. If the roller > is showing cracking, > > it > > > needs replacing. If it isn't > cracked, you could reuse this part but it > > > depends on what else > you do with the engine. If you are doing a total > > rebuild
> and spending lots of money on other new parts, then you do want to
> > replace this tensioner roller.
> > > 5) if that
> slipper really is damaged and worn to metal, you probably > > > have a > stretched cam chain and the cam chain tensioner (the plunger
> which
> > > pushes on the tensioner roller) may not be working
> properly. The shop
> > manual
> > > tells you how to check these
> items. Unless you know when the cam chain
> > was
> > > last
> replaced, you should go ahead an replace it.
> > > 6) the
> primary drive and its dampers should be checked. The dampers will
> shrink, get hard, and crack. They should already be in the hard stage
> > (the engine looks like it has lots of mileage on it). The shop > manual > > gives > > > the specs on this and details how to check > it. When you put the assembly > > > together, the fit should be snug.
> When the dampers shrink too much, the
> > > assembly exhibits free play
> ..... you will be able to wiggle it back and
> > forth.
> > > It is unfortunate the engine was full of metal particles.
> You are going
> > > to have to spend a lot of time inspecting all the
> gears and bearings
> > with a
> > > microscope looking for damage.
> The crankshaft has an end bearing which
> > > slides off and you can
> look at these bearings. If you see any damage on
> > these
> bearings, there is a good chance the other bearings are also damaged
> > since they saw the same oil. If the metal shavings are aluminum, > the > > problem > > > is not as serious but if there is iron in the > shavings, that can put > > small > > > scratches on the bearings > and while the engine may work fine now, it > > does > > > cause the > engine to start failing and you may not see the effect for
> 10,000
> > > miles.
> > > If you kept any of the
> motor oil which was in the engine, you could
> > stick
> > > a
> magnet in it and see if any iron particles attach to it. The better
> way
> > > is to have the oil analyzed for its iron content which gives > an > > immediate > > > indication of how bad things might be. You > probably are not interested > > in > > > getting your oil analyzed > but if you do, check the aviation yellow > > pages.
> > > Oil
> analysis is popular on planes (large and small) because it lets them
> > detect problems well before the engine fails.
> See what it needs and then you can determine whether you want to
> rebuild it or buy a used engine. You may also want to take a class in
> machine
> > > tool operations (learning how to use a lathe, milling
> machine, surface
> > > grinders, etc) so you can make or recondition
> your own parts.
> > > hope you are learning lots,
> > Dale
> > > Thanks to someone's nice post about
> flywheel/rotor removal, and Dale's
> > > info about the internals of
> the gear box, I have now opened up the
> > engine
> > > case.
> Everything looked pretty good, except that I had a LOT of metal
> shavings
> > > sitting in the bottom of the case.
> _
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0799
> > .jpg_
> > (
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0799
> .jpg)
> > > I didn't have time to start taking gears out
> yet, so I haven't found a
> > > for-sure source of all the shredded
> metal. One possible source is the
> > guide
> > > that the cam
> chain slides on. Both the cam chain tensioning wheel and > > the > cam > > > guide are severely eaten up, and the long skinny guide that > runs up the > > > length of the chain is missing a little bit of metal > on it. I don't know > > how > > > much metal it's missing since I > don't know what it looked like > > originally.
> > > But here's a
> picture of the guide and the tensioning wheel:
> > _
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0798
> > .jpg_
> > (
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0798
> .jpg)
> > > I don't know for sure if the guide and wheel are where I'm > getting my > > > metal flakes, but I do know for sure that I'm going to > need a new guide > > and > > > wheel.
> I've also been finding very interesting parts, the likes of which I've
> > never seen in any other engine. Like this Drive Sprocket Dampener > thingy > > ma > > > bobber:
> > _
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0793
> > .jpg_
> > (
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0793
> .jpg)
> > > It's got these little plastic things inbetween the two > drive pieces, I > > > guess to help reduce vibrations and stuff. Very > fascinating. Is this > > something > > > that wears out and has to > be replaced very often? Mine seams ok to me, > > but > > > I'm not > totally sure what ok is.
> > > Also: the little plastic
> thing that apparently sprays oil onto my drive
> > > chain is a little
> bit broken. I might be able to re-use it, but if a new
> > one
> > is out there, I'd prefer to have it in my engine:
> _
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0800
> > .jpg_
> > (
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/ ... s/HPIM0800
> .jpg)
> > > Are regular parts stores, or honda dealerships
> a good place to go for
> > > stuff like this?? Or is there a secret
> website where I can find Honda
> > 600
> > > internal engine parts?
> Or do I just need to be very careful with my old
> > one,
> since it's almost unreplaceable. I've seen some of this stuff on Ebay,
> but I'd
> > > much rather get new than used.
> thanks very much,
> > > Mike.
Post Reply