N600 Braking Problem

[juniselect]

Recently, I have been experiencing a problem with my front brakes.
After a few stop and goes around the neighborhood, the front brakes function, but are not disengaging; leaving the pedel very stiff with no give. It usually gets progressively worse until I can't accelerate at all.
I usually have to pull to the side of the road and release the pressure by loosening the bleeder screw and allowing some brake fluid to exit the calipers and allows the pistons to disengage. While, I have been monitoring the fluid level, and refilling when necessary, I know that this shouldn't be happening.
Any suggestions on identifiable problems? Any pointers?
Thanks in advance for your help!
-marty
san francisco, ca

[Mike]

I had the same problem with my sedan, the pins that run through the brake pads were not lubed up enough, I put just a little but of grease on them and it fixed it Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, "juniselect" wrote:
Recently, I have been experiencing a problem with my front brakes.
After a few stop and goes around the neighborhood, the front brakes function, but are not disengaging; leaving the pedel very stiff with no give. It usually gets progressively worse until I can't accelerate at all.
I usually have to pull to the side of the road and release the pressure by loosening the bleeder screw and allowing some brake fluid to exit the calipers and allows the pistons to disengage. While, I have been monitoring the fluid level, and refilling when necessary, I know that this shouldn't be happening.
Any suggestions on identifiable problems? Any pointers?
Thanks in advance for your help!
-marty
san francisco, ca

[Charles Gould]

Although the sticky pins are a possibility, this symptom is a classic indicator of a collapsed rubber brake hose. The inside of the hose swells shut enough to restrick fluid flow. The pressure of your foot on the pedal can overcome the restriction, allowing the fluid to be forced by the restriction and allowing the brakes to function, but the return springs on the shoes are not strong enough to overcome the restriction and allow the fluid to return or the brakes to release completely.
As a result, the hose acts as a one way valve and allows the brake to function, but not too release, or to release very slowly. The resulting dragging brake heats the wheel cylinder until the fluid boils and expands, worsening the problem.
If opening the bleeder screw resolves the problem, it is not likely to be the pins, but rather indicates that the brake hoses have collapsed. Replace all three brake hoses to ensure safety. Hope that you did not warp rotors or drums by the excessive heat resulting fom this problem.
Chas
Sent from my iPad

[Mike]

Ya the rubber brake on my car had this problem as well...I had them made locally for 18 bucks a piece!
Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 1, 2013, at 12:36 PM, Charles Gould wrote:
Although the sticky pins are a possibility, this symptom is a classic indicator of a collapsed rubber brake hose. The inside of the hose swells shut enough to restrick fluid flow. The pressure of your foot on the pedal can overcome the restriction, allowing the fluid to be forced by the restriction and allowing the brakes to function, but the return springs on the shoes are not strong enough to overcome the restriction and allow the fluid to return or the brakes to release completely.
As a result, the hose acts as a one way valve and allows the brake to function, but not too release, or to release very slowly. The resulting dragging brake heats the wheel cylinder until the fluid boils and expands, worsening the problem.
If opening the bleeder screw resolves the problem, it is not likely to be the pins, but rather indicates that the brake hoses have collapsed. Replace all three brake hoses to ensure safety. Hope that you did not warp rotors or drums by the excessive heat resulting fom this problem.
Chas
Sent from my iPad

[Loren Kuipers]

this problem could also be from the master cylinder not allowing the fluid back int itself. I have had this problem on other vehicles and found the master to be the problem. What may be the case is it may not be going back thru the proportioning valve either, , you can ck this by seing if at the master yoy can relieve the pressure from the system just as you have at the calipers. This way you can determine if it acvtually at the master cyl or somewhere between the two. this way you can determine which side is ast  fault and or which hose. it makes it eassier to diagnosis just where th problem lies. If you replace the lines and the problem still exists then it is a waste of time and money. By going to the master cyl you can determine the exact cause.also I have eeen where the master cylinder push rod from the pedal does not retract back enough allowing the fluid to go back to the m/ cyl it must release all the way back to the rest position or the rod is extended too far not allowing fluid to return and thereby keeping the calipers engaged at the wheels.
 i would look closely at either one of these areas first before buying new hoses and rule them out then buy hoses..as a professional this is the avenue i would try then ck the rotors and calipers for warping and damaged pads if there is any.
hope this willl help
Loren

--- On
Sat, 6/1/13, Mike

wrote:
From: Mike
Subject: Re: [2cylinderhondas] N600 Braking Problem
To: "2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com" Date: Saturday, June 1, 2013, 12:52 PM
Ya the rubber brake on my car had this problem as well...I had them made locally for 18 bucks a piece!
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 1, 2013, at 12:36 PM, Charles Gould wrote:
> Although the sticky pins are a possibility, this symptom is a classic indicator of a collapsed rubber brake hose. The inside of the hose swells shut enough to restrick fluid flow. The pressure of your foot on the pedal can overcome the restriction, allowing the fluid to be forced by the restriction and allowing the brakes to function, but the return springs on the shoes are not strong enough to overcome the restriction and allow the fluid to return or the brakes to release completely.
> As a result, the hose acts as a one way valve and allows the brake to function, but not too release, or to release very slowly. The resulting dragging brake heats the wheel cylinder until the fluid boils and expands, worsening the problem.
> If opening the bleeder screw resolves the problem, it is not likely to be the pins, but rather indicates that the brake hoses have collapsed. Replace all three brake hoses to ensure safety. Hope that you did not warp rotors > or drums by the excessive heat resulting fom this problem.
> Chas
> Sent from my iPad

[Bill]

The compressed brake line is a possibility, but it normally applies to only that brake component at that wheel.  If it is both front wheels that will not release, check the bleed back hole in the master cylinder.  Often the hole fills with crystallized DOT 3 over time and was missed during rebuild.  A true check is to try opening the bleeder on the other wheel to see if that releases the brake peddle.
Bill

[Charles Gould]

Very good advice and I agree with Bill and Loren. I thought that you were onl experiencing a single (or two) stuck brakes.Chas Sent from my iPad

On Jun 2, 2013, at 2:51 AM, Bill wrote:
The compressed brake line is a possibility, but it normally
applies to only that brake component at that wheel.  If it is both front wheels that will not release, check the bleed back hole in the master cylinder.  Often the hole fills with crystallized DOT 3 over time and was missed during rebuild.  A true check is to try opening the bleeder on the other wheel to see if that releases the brake peddle.
Bill
From:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
]
On Behalf Of
Mike
Sent:
Saturday, June 01, 2013 12:53 PM
To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [2cylinderhondas] N600
Braking Problem
Ya the rubber brake on my car had this problem as well...I had them made locally for 18 bucks a piece!
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 1, 2013, at 12:36 PM, Charles Gould wrote:
> Although the sticky pins are a possibility, this symptom is a classic > indicator of a collapsed rubber brake hose. The inside of the hose swells shut > enough to restrick fluid flow. The pressure of your foot on the pedal can > overcome the restriction, allowing the fluid to be forced by the restriction > and allowing the brakes to function, but the return springs on the shoes are > not strong enough to overcome the restriction and allow the fluid to return or > the brakes to release completely.
> As a result, the hose acts as a one way
> valve and allows the brake to function, but not too release, or to release > very slowly. The resulting dragging brake heats the wheel cylinder until the > fluid boils and expands, worsening the problem.
> If opening the bleeder
> screw resolves the problem, it is not likely to be the pins, but rather > indicates that the brake hoses have collapsed. Replace all three brake hoses > to ensure safety. Hope that you did not warp rotors or drums by the excessive > heat resulting fom this problem.
> Chas
> Sent from my iPad

[feltonminicycle]

If you go back and read the old posts you will also see my repeated postings about it being a stuck reaction port piston in the brake booster. Aluminum piston in aluminum booster body.
If you don't have a booster look to the master cylinder.
Miles

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "juniselect" wrote:
> Recently, I have been experiencing a problem with my front brakes.
> After a few stop and goes around the neighborhood, the front brakes function, but are not disengaging; leaving the pedel very stiff with no give. It usually gets progressively worse until I can't accelerate at all.
> I usually have to pull to the side of the road and release the pressure by loosening the bleeder screw and allowing some brake fluid to exit the calipers and allows the pistons to disengage. While, I have been monitoring the fluid level, and refilling when necessary, I know that this shouldn't be happening.
> Any suggestions on identifiable problems? Any pointers?
> Thanks in advance for your help!
> -marty
> san francisco, ca

[juniselect]

I would be interested in going in and finding this stuck piston in the brake booster. Is there anything I need to be concerned about with its disassembly? What am I looking for? Also, I tried to search previous messages, but couldn't identify which one Miles was referencing.
Also, I am seeing crystallization of brake fluid on the master cylinder, so I plan to head in that direction if the piston within the brake booster isn't the culprit.
Again, any step-by-step directions with removal/disassembly would be greatly appreciated. I like to take the "overly cautious" route with these items so that I don't do something that could have been avoided with help/ input/heads-up/pointers from the veterans of the group!
Thanks
-Marty
San Francisco, CA

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "feltonminicycle" wrote:
> If you go back and read the old posts you will also see my repeated postings about it being a stuck reaction port piston in the brake booster. Aluminum piston in aluminum booster body.
> If you don't have a booster look to the master cylinder.
> Miles
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "juniselect" wrote:
> > Recently, I have been experiencing a problem with my front brakes.
> > After a few stop and goes around the neighborhood, the front brakes function, but are not disengaging; leaving the pedel very stiff with no give. It usually gets progressively worse until I can't accelerate at all.
> > I usually have to pull to the side of the road and release the pressure by loosening the bleeder screw and allowing some brake fluid to exit the calipers and allows the pistons to disengage. While, I have been monitoring the fluid level, and refilling when necessary, I know that this shouldn't be happening.
> > Any suggestions on identifiable problems? Any pointers?
> > Thanks in advance for your help!
> > -marty
> > san francisco, ca

[dwb_07]

If there is crystallization there is/was water. The whole system needs to be cleaned and inspected.
Get your self a good line wrench and use it.
Boiling water will dissolve frozen master,booster,wheel and caliper pistons. You can't be pounding and scraping on aluminum parts. It is not at all like old American cast iron parts.
Make drawings or take pictures of the order of assembly of the parts. You will get confused.
Reference a manual. http://www.honda600coupe.com/Honda_600_ ... hap_11.pdf
Oh, and brake fluid loves to eat paint.

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "juniselect" wrote:
> I would be interested in going in and finding this stuck piston in the brake booster. Is there anything I need to be concerned about with its disassembly? What am I looking for? Also, I tried to search previous messages, but couldn't identify which one Miles was referencing.
> Also, I am seeing crystallization of brake fluid on the master cylinder, so I plan to head in that direction if the piston within the brake booster isn't the culprit.
> Again, any step-by-step directions with removal/disassembly would be greatly appreciated. I like to take the "overly cautious" route with these items so that I don't do something that could have been avoided with help/ input/heads-up/pointers from the veterans of the group!
> Thanks
> -Marty
> San Francisco, CA
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "feltonminicycle" wrote:
> > If you go back and read the old posts you will also see my repeated postings about it being a stuck reaction port piston in the brake booster. Aluminum piston in aluminum booster body.
> > If you don't have a booster look to the master cylinder.
> > Miles
> > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "juniselect" wrote:
> > > Recently, I have been experiencing a problem with my front brakes.
> > > After a few stop and goes around the neighborhood, the front brakes function, but are not disengaging; leaving the pedel very stiff with no give. It usually gets progressively worse until I can't accelerate at all.
> > > I usually have to pull to the side of the road and release the pressure by loosening the bleeder screw and allowing some brake fluid to exit the calipers and allows the pistons to disengage. While, I have been monitoring the fluid level, and refilling when necessary, I know that this shouldn't be happening.
> > > Any suggestions on identifiable problems? Any pointers?
> > > Thanks in advance for your help!
> > > -marty
> > > san francisco, ca