Honda N600 trivial question

[cotton]

The ground from my battery goes to valve cover of the engine.
   Is this ok or a no-no?

> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> zayjspeed
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Thursday, August 14, 2008 12:56
> PM
> Subject:
> [2cylinderhondas] Re: Honda N600
> trivial question
> --- In
> 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> ,
> goinhm@... wrote:
> > And remember the words of the great Vince lombardi
> (who?) "A
> chain is only as good as it's weakest link" make sure that you > run at > least a 10~12 gauge wire from bat - to regulator mount to starter
> mount bolt.
> Solder your own eye-let on the wires NO BUTT CONECTORS THAT > YOU > CRIMP SOLDER ONLY! and this is for for you Mr. in a tune up run
> ground from block to frame you can heve 460 amp. that will = .050 Ma.
> if you do not have a solid ground = to +
> Happy twisting every one the
> "M" mechanic!
> :::::::::::: ::::::::: ::::::::: :::::::Zay
> Speed
> > I use a type 51 battery.
> .

Note: 1 image(s) originally linked in this post are no longer available (nc3=4507179).

[Mario Montes]

Actually, solder is only slightly better then those acorn nuts in an automotive application.
The best connection is CRIMP connections, but you need a HIGH QUALITY crimp tool as well as terminal connectors, not any of those red/blue/yellow ones.
(Think of it, you NEVER see soldered connections in OEM wiring harnesses) Solder can crack, corrode, etc, on top of just being a high resistance joint if both connected wires aren't cleaned or heated properly while soldered.
Also, can you explain your post more? Can I run the 10-12 gauge from the battery to the mag switch then run a 2 gauge wire from the starter to the battery negative and be ok? My understanding is that the amperage is drawn through the ground wire, so that would make sense.
Mario

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:56 AM, zayjspeed
--- In
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> , goinhm@... wrote:
> > And remember the words of the great Vince lombardi (who?) "A
> chain is only as good as it's weakest link" make sure that you run at
> least a 10~12 gauge wire from bat - to regulator mount to starter
> mount bolt.
> Solder your own eye-let on the wires NO BUTT CONECTORS THAT YOU
> CRIMP SOLDER ONLY! and this is for for you Mr. in a tune up run
> ground from block to frame you can heve 460 amp. that will = .050 Ma.
> if you do not have a solid ground = to +
> Happy twisting every one the "M" mechanic!
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Zay Speed
> > I use a type 51 battery.
> > Your local auto parts dealer will sell battery cables which will
> work for
> > you. Pick a
> > red sheathed cable which has the extra pigtail so you can connect
> to your 45
> > amp
> > primary fuse.
> > good luck,
> > Dale
> > Darn. I just saw in the service manual that the starter is rated
> at a
> > "Constrained Current" of 460 amps or less.
> > I guess there goes my idea of using a motorcycle battery...
> > Thanks for the quick response!
> > Another quick question, is there an "off the shelf" able to be
> bought at a
> > parts store battery available for these cars?
> > If not, anyone use a dry or gel cell and mounted it where the
> spare tire
> > went on the smaller engined cars?
> > Anyone have the specs on the battery it needs (Cold cranking amps,
> capacity,
> > etc)?
> > Thanks again,
> > Mario
> > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:01 PM, geez_tech > (mailto:
> tmspeer@
> ...) > wrote:
> > Yes, a regular one will do from places like Autozone, Pep Boys, etc.
> > I think mine measured 32"and you can get them in black or red.
> > Mike
> > --- In _2cylinderhondas@2cylinderhon2cy_
> > (mailto:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> ) , gary cushman
> > wrote:
> > > OOOhhhh the M word.....I was repremended for that nasty word!!
> I
> > looked at my Battery Cables and they are more like a light car
> cable,
> > I dont have the foggiest idea of gage? these are originals on my
> car,
> > I was at Walmart looking at the no lead cables, which are the same
> > size as mine
> > > G
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: mafoose_zxt
> > > To: _2cylinderhondas@2cylinderhon2cy_
> > (mailto:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> )
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:46:53 PM
> > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Honda N600 trivial question
> > > On the quest to get my car that's sat for almost 14yrs running,
> I
> > have
> > > a quick question.
> > > What size (gauge) wire should I run from the battery to the
> starter?
> > > It's basically a motorcycle right? On motorcycles that wire is
> like
> > > 10-12 gauge, is that enough for this car?
> > > Thanks!
> > > Mario
> > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your
> budget?
> > Read reviews on AOL Autos.
> > (
> http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?
> ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

[geez_tech]

Most all the battery cables are 0 to 2 gauge at auto parts stores,
the one I bought at Kragen is just as thick as my factory positive
cable.
You mentioned "run a 2 gauge wire from the starter to the
battery negative and be ok?" I rhink you meant to say run the cable
from the starter to the battery positive, right?
Mike

[zinc2u]

Yeah,  that is a no-no.  I connect my grounding cable at one of the bolts where the heating shroud would attach (it is a 12 or 14mm head).
But I am the guy who doesn't use heating shrouds on my car and I use this spot for my grounding cable.  I believe Honda used to connect their ground strap at the 10mm head bolt
in the center of the engine below the valve cover.  But their ground strap was a smaller gauge cable than the cable I get from the auto parts store.  When I tried to connect at this same spot I never had a reliable connection and it would many times loosen or break the bolt.
The reason you don't want to connect at the valve cover is because of the path the electrical current is taking.  During starting you can have 350 amps flowing from the battery negative terminal toward the starter case.  Since the valve cover is insulated and has 4 bolts which make connection to the engine block,  the 350 amps is going through the 4 bolts and taking the lowest resistance path to the starter.  In this case, the majority of the current is flowing down the passenger side of the cylinder head toward the starter.   After the car starts,  this same path is used for current to flow between the alternator and battery.  Here is why it is bad to connect to the valve cover......(1)   the current flowing causes an electrolysis reaction which corrodes the valve cover bolts over time and (2)  you have an electrolysis reaction where the iron and aluminum meet  in the cylinder block and cylinder head.  In time,  you can develop a pinhole leak.
The best place to connect the cable would be somewhere near the starter motor or alternator.
good luck,
Dale

> The ground from my
> battery goes to valve cover of the engine.
>    Is this ok or a no-no?

Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos .

[zinc2u]

10-12 gauge is not sufficient for the cable to the starter motor.
Others on here
have mentioned 0 to 2 gauge which sounds more appropriate.  At the parts store it
is known as battery cables and it is plenty big enough for these cars.
Dale

> And remember the words of the great Vince lombardi (who?) "A > chain is only > as good as it's weakest link" make sure that you run at > least a 10~12 > gauge wire from bat - to regulator mount to starter > mount bolt.
> Solder
> your own eye-let on the wires NO BUTT CONECTORS THAT YOU > CRIMP SOLDER > ONLY! and this is for for you Mr. in a tune up run > ground from block to > frame you can heve 460 amp. that will = .050 Ma.
> if you do not have a
> solid ground = to +
> Happy twisting every one the "M"
> mechanic!
> :::::::::::: ::::::::: ::::::::: :::::::Zay
> Speed

Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos .

[cotton]

Thanks a bunch Dale.  That was the way it was when I got the car but I will change it now.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> goinhm@...
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Thursday, August 14, 2008 4:12
> PM
> Subject:
> Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: Honda
> N600 trivial question
> Yeah,  that is a no-no.  I connect my grounding cable at one of > the bolts where the heating shroud would attach (it is a 12 or 14mm > head).  But I am the guy who doesn't use heating shrouds on my car and I > use this spot for my grounding cable.  I believe Honda used to connect > their ground strap at the 10mm head bolt
> in the center of the engine below the valve cover.  But their ground > strap was a smaller gauge cable than the cable I get from the auto parts > store.  When I tried to connect at this same spot I never had a reliable > connection and it would many times loosen or break the bolt.
> The reason you don't want to connect at the valve cover is because of the > path the electrical current is taking.  During starting you can have 350 > amps flowing from the battery negative terminal toward the starter > case.  Since the valve cover is insulated and has 4 bolts which make > connection to the engine block,  the 350 amps is going through the 4 > bolts and taking the lowest resistance path to the starter.  In this > case,  the majority of the current is flowing down the passenger side of > the cylinder head toward the starter.   After the car starts, > this same path is used for current to flow between the alternator and > battery.  Here is why it is bad to connect to the valve > cover......( 1)   the current flowing causes an electrolysis > reaction which corrodes the valve cover bolts over time and (2)  you have > an electrolysis reaction where the iron and aluminum meet  in the > cylinder block and cylinder head.  In time,  you can develop a > pinhole leak.
> The best place to connect the cable would be somewhere near the starter > motor or alternator.
> good luck,
> Dale
> > The ground from my
> > battery goes to valve cover of the engine.
> >    Is this ok or a no-no?
> Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
> Read reviews on AOL Autos
> .

[zayjspeed]

---

>You are right (for the most part) when we look to what was "O.E.M."

we must remember that this stuff was produced at a factory with
automated assy. and a production run of lets say 1.2 mill. parts just
for that model. So solder is out, except for any connections that
have to do with spark control/ computer/ brushes/ condensers/ sound/
ect. too much $ to make solder in O.E.M. if it will work for 10 years
they are happy.
What I am saying is that we in the shop can and want to do the best
we can and take the time to do it, going beyond stock/standard.
By using fresh cut & striped or new braded wire crimped,fluxed,
soldered into a good connector you have completely sealed out all
atmosphere in the connection and stopped any "dis similar metal
electrolysis" (that stuff that grows on batteries) this will cause
connectivity resistance and transient electrical problems. We are
looking at just a few wires here that handle the brunt amp/currant
exchange. Solder at connection makes for a solid-contaminate free
connection. Make sure there is a solid ground going to the
block/starter mounting bolts from the frame. They came with a exposed
braded ground strap, but they have been removed on most 600's I have
seen?
Ya know those stator wires down by the F.R.H. blinker I cut the
connectors off and heat shrink/ solder the wires direct to each other
a big + in A.C. out put. Every point of connection that is exposed to
elements/air makes it harder for current to flow. By sealing in
solder it is done, It is quick and easy with propane tip or pistol
gun there cheap! takes a little practice but when you have it down it
works very well.
"Can I run the 10-12 gauge from the battery to the mag switch then
run a 2 gauge wire from the starter to the battery negative and be
ok?"
"Mag Switch"? Is this the brush pack that activates the rotor?
I am not sure if you meen that,. I just build a 6~10ga. wire that
conects from the starter mounting bolts 8 mm. to the regulator mount
where the black wires bolt 6 mm. to R.H.S. by the bat.on the frame
Just 1 wire!
most of these things have the bat - going to the valve cover but no
frame ground! Remember Rubber mounted motor! except as Miles said
"The Accelarator Cable Ground Wire Melting" and my favorite that carb
solinoid! I wonder why thoes are bad all the time, or coils that have
no out put, or???????
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Zay

> Actually, solder is only slightly better then those acorn nuts in an
> automotive application.
> The best connection is CRIMP connections, but you need a HIGH QUALITY crimp
> tool as well as terminal connectors, not any of those

red/blue/yellow ones.

> (Think of it, you NEVER see soldered connections in OEM wiring harnesses)
> Solder can crack, corrode, etc, on top of just being a high resistance joint
> if both connected wires aren't cleaned or heated properly while soldered.
> Also, can you explain your post more? Can I run the 10-12 gauge from the
> battery to the mag switch then run a 2 gauge wire from the starter to the
> battery negative and be ok? My understanding is that the amperage is drawn
> through the ground wire, so that would make sense.
> Mario
> On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:56 AM, zayjspeed wrote:
> > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
,
> > goinhm@ wrote:
> > > And remember the words of the great Vince lombardi (who?) "A
> > chain is only as good as it's weakest link" make sure that you run at
> > least a 10~12 gauge wire from bat - to regulator mount to starter
> > mount bolt.
> > Solder your own eye-let on the wires NO BUTT CONECTORS THAT YOU
> > CRIMP SOLDER ONLY! and this is for for you Mr. in a tune up run
> > ground from block to frame you can heve 460 amp. that will = .050 Ma.
> > if you do not have a solid ground = to +
> > Happy twisting every one the "M" mechanic!
> > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Zay Speed
> > > I use a type 51 battery.
> > > Your local auto parts dealer will sell battery cables which will
> > work for
> > > you. Pick a
> > > red sheathed cable which has the extra pigtail so you can connect
> > to your 45
> > > amp
> > > primary fuse.
> > > good luck,
> > > Dale
> > > Darn. I just saw in the service manual that the starter is rated
> > at a
> > > "Constrained Current" of 460 amps or less.
> > > I guess there goes my idea of using a motorcycle battery...
> > > Thanks for the quick response!
> > > Another quick question, is there an "off the shelf" able to be
> > bought at a
> > > parts store battery available for these cars?
> > > If not, anyone use a dry or gel cell and mounted it where the
> > spare tire
> > > went on the smaller engined cars?
> > > Anyone have the specs on the battery it needs (Cold cranking amps,
> > capacity,
> > > etc)?
> > > Thanks again,
> > > Mario
> > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:01 PM, geez_tech > > (mailto:tmspeer@) > wrote:
> > > Yes, a regular one will do from places like Autozone, Pep Boys, etc.
> > > I think mine measured 32"and you can get them in black or red.
> > > Mike
> > > --- In _2cylinderhondas@2cylinderhon2cy_
> > > (mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
)
> > , gary cushman
> > > wrote:
> > > > OOOhhhh the M word.....I was repremended for that nasty word!!
> > I
> > > looked at my Battery Cables and they are more like a light car
> > cable,
> > > I dont have the foggiest idea of gage? these are originals on my
> > car,
> > > I was at Walmart looking at the no lead cables, which are the same
> > > size as mine
> > > > G
> > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > From: mafoose_zxt
> > > > To: _2cylinderhondas@2cylinderhon2cy_
> > > (mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
)
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:46:53 PM
> > > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Honda N600 trivial question
> > > > On the quest to get my car that's sat for almost 14yrs running,
> > I
> > > have
> > > > a quick question.
> > > > What size (gauge) wire should I run from the battery to the
> > starter?
> > > > It's basically a motorcycle right? On motorcycles that wire is
> > like
> > > > 10-12 gauge, is that enough for this car?
> > > > Thanks!
> > > > Mario
> > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your
> > budget?
> > > Read reviews on AOL Autos.
> > > (
http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?
> > ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

[zayjspeed]

--- > WHAT A GUY ALL RIGHT DALE! YES!
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Zay

> Thanks a bunch Dale. That was the way it was when I got the car

but I will change it now.

[zayjspeed]

--- In 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com, goinhm@... wrote:

> This wire is to conect the ground from the motor to frame, for the

car, charging, coil, regulater, rectifer to work without chaseing
backwards through componets. 10~12 is what every one has laying
around in the shop and is the size of the rest of the harness. You
would have the Batt. ground hooked to the valve cover or worse the 6
mm. air shroude bolts. That is the starter ground. The ones that
still have the ground strap hooked under the hir cleaner. They failed
to remove the sound spray from the 6 mm. area resulting in supper bad
conection, they did not scrape the metal clean before conection!

> 10-12 gauge is not sufficient for the cable to the starter motor. Others on
> here
> have mentioned 0 to 2 gauge which sounds more appropriate. At the parts
> store it
> is known as battery cables and it is plenty big enough for these cars.
> Dale
> > And remember the words of the great Vince lombardi (who?) "A
> chain is only as good as it's weakest link" make sure that you run at
> least a 10~12 gauge wire from bat - to regulator mount to starter
> mount bolt.
> Solder your own eye-let on the wires NO BUTT CONECTORS THAT YOU
> CRIMP SOLDER ONLY! and this is for for you Mr. in a tune up run
> ground from block to frame you can heve 460 amp. that will = .050 Ma.
> if you do not have a solid ground = to +
> Happy twisting every one the "M" mechanic!
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
> Read reviews on AOL Autos.
> (
http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Je ... ert-review?

ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )

[Kevin Lister]

Hi Mario,
I'm not sure where you got the idea that solder doesn't make a good connection. Soldering makes excellent electrical connections. Soldering is used in electronics that are used in far more demanding applications that automobiles. I suspect the reason soldering is not used in car wiring is simply because it costs less to crimp than it does to solder. In my long career in electrical engineering I can safely say that I've seen far more failed crimp and wire-wrap connections than solder connections.
Just my $0.02 worth! ;o)
kev

--- On
Thu, 8/14/08, Mario Montes

wrote:
From: Mario Montes
Subject: Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: Honda N600 trivial question To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, August 14, 2008, 11:14 AM
Actually, solder is only slightly better then those acorn nuts in an automotive application.
The best connection is CRIMP connections, but you need a HIGH QUALITY crimp tool as well as terminal connectors, not any of those red/blue/yellow ones.
(Think of it, you NEVER see soldered connections in OEM wiring harnesses) Solder can crack, corrode, etc, on top of just being a high resistance joint if both connected wires aren't cleaned or heated properly while soldered.
Also, can you explain your post more? Can I run the 10-12 gauge from the battery to the mag switch then run a 2 gauge wire from the starter to the battery negative and be ok? My understanding is that the amperage is drawn through the ground wire, so that would make sense.
Mario
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:56 AM, zayjspeed
--- In
> 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> , goinhm@... wrote:
> > And remember the words of the great Vince lombardi (who?) "A > chain is only as good as it's weakest link" make sure that you run at > least a 10~12 gauge wire from bat - to regulator mount to starter > mount bolt.
> Solder your own eye-let on the wires NO BUTT CONECTORS THAT YOU > CRIMP SOLDER ONLY! and this is for for you Mr. in a tune up run > ground from block to frame you can heve 460 amp. that will = .050 Ma.
> if you do not have a solid ground = to +
> Happy twisting every one the "M" mechanic!
> :::::::::::: ::::::::: ::::::::: :::::::Zay Speed
> > I use a type 51 battery.
> > Your local auto parts dealer will sell battery cables which will > work for > > you. Pick a > > red sheathed cable which has the extra pigtail so you can connect > to your 45 > > amp > > primary fuse.
> > good luck,
> > Dale
> > Darn. I just saw in the service manual that the starter is rated > at a > > "Constrained Current" of 460 amps or less.
> > I guess there goes my idea of using a motorcycle battery...
> > Thanks for the quick response!
> > Another quick question, is there an "off the shelf" able to be > bought at a > > parts store battery available for these cars?
> > If not, anyone use a dry or gel cell and mounted it where the > spare tire > > went on the smaller engined cars?
> > Anyone have the specs on the
> battery it needs (Cold cranking amps,
> capacity,
> > etc)?
> > Thanks again,
> > Mario
> > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:01 PM, geez_tech > (mailto:
> tmspeer@
> ...) > wrote:
> > Yes, a regular one will do from places like Autozone, Pep Boys, etc.
> > I think mine measured 32"and you can get them in black or red.
> > Mike
> > --- In _2cylinderhondas@ 2cylinderhon2cy_
> > (mailto:
> 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> ) , gary cushman
> > wrote:
> > > OOOhhhh the M word.....I was repremended for that nasty word!!
> I
> > looked at my Battery Cables and they are more like a light car > cable, > > I dont have the foggiest idea of gage? these are originals on my > car, > > I was at Walmart looking at the no lead cables, which are the same > > size as mine > > > G
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: mafoose_zxt
> > > To: _2cylinderhondas@ 2cylinderhon2cy_
> > (mailto:
> 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> )
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:46:53 PM
> > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Honda N600 trivial question
> > > On the quest to get my car that's sat for almost 14yrs running, > I > > have > > > a quick question.
> > > What size (gauge) wire should I run from the battery to the > starter?
> > > It's basically a motorcycle right? On motorcycles that wire is > like > > > 10-12 gauge, is that enough for this car?
> > > Thanks!
> > > Mario
> ************ **Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget?
> > Read reviews on AOL Autos.
> > (
> http://autos. aol.com/cars- BMW-128-2008/ expert-review?
> ncid=aolaut00050000 000017 )