If anyone has any ideas....
I was driving the Z and the car hiccuped a few times and went dead.
I had been having problems with the gas pump, checked it and it wasn't
the culprit this time.
I tried to start it and it is backfireing and sputtering.
I feared that the chain had jumped, so as I waited for a tow, I took
off the oil fill cap and turned the crank by hand, (a little then had
to wait for the pressure to release, new rings), untill I got the
timming mark on the "T" I had a flashlight, and the timing mark is dead
on center. So the chain appears not to have failed.
I have had such little time that I haven't opened up the point's box
yet.
This is my thinking, either the points arm has broken off the little
platic runner that follows the lobes on the cam, or the pin on the end
of the cam has worn and allowed the lobes to rotate on the end of the
cam or the insulator washer for the points has failed and is allowing
the points to partialy short....
Do I need to look at anything else?
Oh yeah, it was raining, and the roads were wet, this is only the 3rd
time I have driven it in the rain. The other 2 times no problems. I
checked the wires going to the coil and the distributer, but they
looked good.
I appreciate any help.
KCandtheZ
Ideas before I tear open the electrical system......
Re: Ideas before I tear open the electrical system......
Also,
It was a GOOD thing that the Honda died, I went back to town in my Rio
just after the tow and whilst sitting at a redlight a 17 year old girl
hit me in the rear and pushed me out into the intersection, (10 - 12
feet.) If I had been in the Honda when that had happend, it might have
hurt the car!! :^)...
Take care and thanks for the help!
KCandtheZ
It was a GOOD thing that the Honda died, I went back to town in my Rio
just after the tow and whilst sitting at a redlight a 17 year old girl
hit me in the rear and pushed me out into the intersection, (10 - 12
feet.) If I had been in the Honda when that had happend, it might have
hurt the car!! :^)...
Take care and thanks for the help!
KCandtheZ
Re: Ideas before I tear open the electrical system......
Several things could be causing the problems you describe. Here are a few:
1) dirty spark plugs
2) incorrect ignition timing
3) incorrect valve timing
4) burned valves
5) dirty point contacts
6) low cylinder compression
7) faulty high voltage section (e.g. wires from ignition coil to spark plugs)
Some things to try:
A) Look at the spark plugs. If they look new or chocolate brown, they are firing fine. If they look black or wet, you have an engine problem. You might replace the plugs and see if the engine starts. If it starts, your problem is most likely not cured but the engine will run until the plugs foul again.
B) pull the cover on the distributor and look at the points. With a 12 light (or voltmeter) connected across the points, rotate the crank until the light comes on (12 volts on a meter). The crank should be very close to the "F" mark. You are doing a static timing measurement. At this point, I would expect to be close to the "F" mark but would not be concerned if I was off by as much as the angle between the "F" and "T" (I think it is 8 degrees or is it 6? The plate under the hood tells you the advance).
If the light never come on or you don't see something close to 12 volts, the blue wire going to the points is probably shorted out. check the spade connector on the points and see if it is shorting to ground on the points. Since you indicated backfiring, I am expecting you will see some voltage at the points.
C) Measure the resistance of the points. Disconnect the battery (or make sure the ign switch is off) and open/close the points manually.
The resistance should be low each time (less than 50 milliohms). You may not have a meter which measures that low. So, look instead for consistently low readings. If you see it low most of the time and some of the time it shows a higher reading (above 0.5 ohms), you have dirty/worn points. This is one of your problems.
BTW, what kind of gas mileage were you getting. If the mileage was 36 mpg or higher, the points resistance should be okay. If you were getting less than 20 mpg, the points may be a problem.
D) How is the compression? Is it about 160 psi in each cylinder?
E) You stated the car was backfiring. Since the plugs fire on both the top of the compression stroke and just before the exhaust stroke, any air/fuel mixture which is not ignited during the power stroke could be ignited on the exhaust stroke. Ignition problems and low compression can be a culprit.
Check the high voltage side. I just take the spark plug wires and connect them to 2 new spark plugs which have their threaded portion (the casing) grounded to the engine block. With the 12 volts applied to the ignition and the points in their closed position, I manually open/close the points and look at the spark across the gap of the plugs.
You should see a strong spark. If it is weak (barely visible or just one thin line of spark), you have a problem. While you are "sparking" the plugs, you should be able to touch any section of the insulated wiring along the length of the spark plug wire without being shocked or feeling a tingle.
If you don't see any spark, you may have a bad condensor, dirty points, defective spark plug wires/connector, black wire on the igniton coil not grounded to the chassis, defective grounding strap from the engine block to the chassis, or a defective ignition coil.
F) If all the above checks out, take a look at the valve timing. You will need to remove the valve cover and measure the four valve clearances. If you don't know how to do this, look in the manual or ask us.
good luck,
Dale
1) dirty spark plugs
2) incorrect ignition timing
3) incorrect valve timing
4) burned valves
5) dirty point contacts
6) low cylinder compression
7) faulty high voltage section (e.g. wires from ignition coil to spark plugs)
Some things to try:
A) Look at the spark plugs. If they look new or chocolate brown, they are firing fine. If they look black or wet, you have an engine problem. You might replace the plugs and see if the engine starts. If it starts, your problem is most likely not cured but the engine will run until the plugs foul again.
B) pull the cover on the distributor and look at the points. With a 12 light (or voltmeter) connected across the points, rotate the crank until the light comes on (12 volts on a meter). The crank should be very close to the "F" mark. You are doing a static timing measurement. At this point, I would expect to be close to the "F" mark but would not be concerned if I was off by as much as the angle between the "F" and "T" (I think it is 8 degrees or is it 6? The plate under the hood tells you the advance).
If the light never come on or you don't see something close to 12 volts, the blue wire going to the points is probably shorted out. check the spade connector on the points and see if it is shorting to ground on the points. Since you indicated backfiring, I am expecting you will see some voltage at the points.
C) Measure the resistance of the points. Disconnect the battery (or make sure the ign switch is off) and open/close the points manually.
The resistance should be low each time (less than 50 milliohms). You may not have a meter which measures that low. So, look instead for consistently low readings. If you see it low most of the time and some of the time it shows a higher reading (above 0.5 ohms), you have dirty/worn points. This is one of your problems.
BTW, what kind of gas mileage were you getting. If the mileage was 36 mpg or higher, the points resistance should be okay. If you were getting less than 20 mpg, the points may be a problem.
D) How is the compression? Is it about 160 psi in each cylinder?
E) You stated the car was backfiring. Since the plugs fire on both the top of the compression stroke and just before the exhaust stroke, any air/fuel mixture which is not ignited during the power stroke could be ignited on the exhaust stroke. Ignition problems and low compression can be a culprit.
Check the high voltage side. I just take the spark plug wires and connect them to 2 new spark plugs which have their threaded portion (the casing) grounded to the engine block. With the 12 volts applied to the ignition and the points in their closed position, I manually open/close the points and look at the spark across the gap of the plugs.
You should see a strong spark. If it is weak (barely visible or just one thin line of spark), you have a problem. While you are "sparking" the plugs, you should be able to touch any section of the insulated wiring along the length of the spark plug wire without being shocked or feeling a tingle.
If you don't see any spark, you may have a bad condensor, dirty points, defective spark plug wires/connector, black wire on the igniton coil not grounded to the chassis, defective grounding strap from the engine block to the chassis, or a defective ignition coil.
F) If all the above checks out, take a look at the valve timing. You will need to remove the valve cover and measure the four valve clearances. If you don't know how to do this, look in the manual or ask us.
good luck,
Dale
See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.> I
> tried to start it and it is backfireing and sputtering.
> I feared that the
> chain had jumped, so as I waited for a tow, I took
> off the oil fill cap
> and turned the crank by hand, (a little then had
> to wait for the pressure
> to release, new rings), untill I got the
> timming mark on the "T" I had a
> flashlight, and the timing mark is dead
> on center. So the chain appears
> not to have failed.
> I have had such little time that I haven't opened up
> the point's box
> yet.
> This is my thinking, either the points arm has
> broken off the little
> platic runner that follows the lobes on the cam, or
> the pin on the end
> of the cam has worn and allowed the lobes to rotate on
> the end of the
> cam or the insulator washer for the points has failed and
> is allowing
> the points to partialy short....
Re: Ideas before I tear open the electrical system......
Thanks for all the ideas, I tend to start with the easiest thing and
work myself backwards. As soon as I pulled the cover I saw the
problem, the washer on the end of the camshaft bolt wasn't there! I
just had a pretty little bolt and no washer holding on the lobes. So I
am actually impressed that it lasted 400 miles before it rose enough to
jump off of the 3mm pin. Any way all is well in the world and the Z is
running again.....Good day.
KCandtheZ
work myself backwards. As soon as I pulled the cover I saw the
problem, the washer on the end of the camshaft bolt wasn't there! I
just had a pretty little bolt and no washer holding on the lobes. So I
am actually impressed that it lasted 400 miles before it rose enough to
jump off of the 3mm pin. Any way all is well in the world and the Z is
running again.....Good day.
KCandtheZ
-
Jessica Lynch
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:22 am
Re: Ideas before I tear open the electrical system......
i think i need a new gas tank.�
http://www.flickr.com/photos/i_love_the_slow_loris/ thoughts?
thanks all.
JEssica On Dec 20, 2007, at 9:44 PM, kcandthez wrote:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/i_love_the_slow_loris/ thoughts?
thanks all.
JEssica On Dec 20, 2007, at 9:44 PM, kcandthez wrote:
> Thanks for all the ideas, I tend to start with the easiest thing and > work myself backwards. As soon as I pulled the cover I saw the > problem, the washer on the end of the camshaft bolt wasn't there! I > just had a pretty little bolt and no washer holding on the lobes. So I > am actually impressed that it lasted 400 miles before it rose enough to > jump off of the 3mm pin. Any way all is well in the world and the Z is > running again.....Good day.
> KCandtheZ
Re: Ideas before I tear open the electrical system......
Casey;
It sounds like you found the current problem. But it can also indicate other issues. I really like and use green lock tight on assembly bolts and nuts for the Honda 600 engines.
The engine has a tendency to shake itself apart.
On the modifications you are looking at. Miles has addressed several of the areas we all should be looking at before getting over zealous in performance modifications. Remember that the 36.5 c.i. 36hp engine is already built to perform better than most 600 cc engines. The weakest links are the problem. To name a few - Oil pump rod and eccentric, transmission ball bearing units, needle bearing thrust washer, the crankshaft, poor oil filtering and the points breaker plate ignition system.
I, as well as others have several crank shafts resting in our garages with bad bearings waiting for a solution. Back in the early years of the N600 a company put out a larger piston kit that went through many crank shafts. A 35 year old crank shaft has lots of wear, along with many of the other parts.
What we should do is find a company that will rebuild crank shafts, modify the oil filter to remote spin on oil filters (the reason being that the oil lubricates both engine and transmission allowing more metal and other imperfections to work their way into the aluminum roller bearing cages housed in the crank shaft and other bearing surfaces) and sleeve the eccentric to the oil pump with steel rather than leaving the aluminum surface the oil pump rod rides on now.
Miles made a steel oil pump rod that I personally liked a lot and have used in several engines with a steel sleeved eccentric. It makes the oil pump almost bullet proof, and cost about $150.00 for the modification. The remote oil filter system is about another $150.00 and the spin on filter is a PH8A that runs in the price range of $2.50 each. Then there is the Oil Cooler, very cool.
Casey, I agree with the argument that fuel injection and electronic ignition are the best, but how many miles are we putting on these cars? Cost to use value is a bit over the edge.
As for the Carburetor, why can't we use another one? Alcohol in the fuel we use these days are eating up the rubber and other seals in the carb. I have 6 carbs that have shaft vacuum leaks because the seal is gone. Maybe Fuel Injection is a bit exotic for what we have. A better carb or Viton seals might be the next move.
Bill
It sounds like you found the current problem. But it can also indicate other issues. I really like and use green lock tight on assembly bolts and nuts for the Honda 600 engines.
The engine has a tendency to shake itself apart.
On the modifications you are looking at. Miles has addressed several of the areas we all should be looking at before getting over zealous in performance modifications. Remember that the 36.5 c.i. 36hp engine is already built to perform better than most 600 cc engines. The weakest links are the problem. To name a few - Oil pump rod and eccentric, transmission ball bearing units, needle bearing thrust washer, the crankshaft, poor oil filtering and the points breaker plate ignition system.
I, as well as others have several crank shafts resting in our garages with bad bearings waiting for a solution. Back in the early years of the N600 a company put out a larger piston kit that went through many crank shafts. A 35 year old crank shaft has lots of wear, along with many of the other parts.
What we should do is find a company that will rebuild crank shafts, modify the oil filter to remote spin on oil filters (the reason being that the oil lubricates both engine and transmission allowing more metal and other imperfections to work their way into the aluminum roller bearing cages housed in the crank shaft and other bearing surfaces) and sleeve the eccentric to the oil pump with steel rather than leaving the aluminum surface the oil pump rod rides on now.
Miles made a steel oil pump rod that I personally liked a lot and have used in several engines with a steel sleeved eccentric. It makes the oil pump almost bullet proof, and cost about $150.00 for the modification. The remote oil filter system is about another $150.00 and the spin on filter is a PH8A that runs in the price range of $2.50 each. Then there is the Oil Cooler, very cool.
Casey, I agree with the argument that fuel injection and electronic ignition are the best, but how many miles are we putting on these cars? Cost to use value is a bit over the edge.
As for the Carburetor, why can't we use another one? Alcohol in the fuel we use these days are eating up the rubber and other seals in the carb. I have 6 carbs that have shaft vacuum leaks because the seal is gone. Maybe Fuel Injection is a bit exotic for what we have. A better carb or Viton seals might be the next move.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of > kcandthez > Sent:
> Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:45
> PM
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> [2cylinderhondas] Re: Ideas before I tear open the electrical > system......
> Thanks for all the ideas, I tend to start with the easiest thing and
> work myself backwards. As soon as I pulled the cover I saw the
> problem, the washer on the end of the camshaft bolt wasn't there! I
> just had a pretty little bolt and no washer holding on the lobes. So I
> am actually impressed that it lasted 400 miles before it rose enough to
> jump off of the 3mm pin. Any way all is well in the world and the Z is
> running again.....Good day.
> KCandtheZ