Re: [EXT] Re: [anzhonda600owners] RE: [2cylinderhondas] Hi performan

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Bill
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:34 am

Re: [2cylinderhondas] Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus

Post by Bill »

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Richard;             The cam bearing/end caps do a remarkable job just as they are with out any modification.  Only when the oil pump fails do the bearing caps fail, not do to design but lack of lubrication.               On the steel center, tension rollers you talk about, see the attached pictures.  Yes, a stretched cam chain creates more damage but it’s the stretched cam chain.  It chews on everything and if the rollers are not changed when they too show ware they will allow more damage by the cam chain.  But Honda didn’t use rubber rollers because it was cheaper, it’s because they work.  As you can see in slides 2, 3 and 4 the cam chain does cause damage to the steel parts in the motor already.  So why add another piece of metal for the cam chain to chew on 100% of the time.              I too have had over 40 Honda 600’s and have done considerable testing with different materials, for gaskets, rollers, slippers, dampeners to name a few, even to building a test motor to test parts I and others have made.  Many have failed which caused changes so other parts could pass testing.  Remember WD40 got its name from 39 failures.  But why in 1977 when thousands of Honda 600’s were still on the road, didn’t Honda use steel rollers or even a steel slipper?  Because maybe with their vast R & D center they found that the cam chain with its ravenous attitude it would be better to use rubber covered rollers and slipper allowing some disposable rubber to fall into the systems oil than metal chips and do the job better.  Just my knowledgeable opinion.    Bill From: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com [mailto: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com ]
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2019 9:28 PM
To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [2cylinderhondas] Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus other mods.    
I want to explain my logic about using steel rather than rubber for timing chain tensioner wheels. I am also putting a ball bearing in the center of them.

1st and foremost keep in mind that all the high performance timing chain sets for cars like Chevy, ford, mopar, etc. consist of a metal chain and metal gears. Yes, I realize that’s not a valid comparison.

My experience with Honda 600’s begin in 1977 and I have owned well over 40 coupes and sedans since. In the early 2000’s I owned 16 of them at one time. I currently own 4 Honda 600 coupes and a ton of parts.

In that span of time I have seen a lot of engines that died due to what was casually diagnosed as a stretched timing chain. But in many if not most cases, it was due to degradation of at least one of the rubber tensioners as well as a stretched timing chain. As these rubber rollers wear, the effective diameter of them decreases. And once they start to degrade, they degrade quickly. What’s even worse is the upper tensioner that is at the top of the cylinders will start to wear off center. Eventually, the cam chain starts to try and pull off to the side of the upper roller. This can get bad enough that the chain will start to hit the sides of the pocket it runs in (in between the cylinders) resulting in ground aluminum throughout the engine. I have also come across more than a few of the lower tensioner rollers that had seized up on its plain bearing. Unless you had the jugs off or the case split, you would never know your lower tensioner roller was shot..

So, even if you put a new timing chain in your engine that has worn out tensioner rollers, you can have a situation that’s basically just like a worn out chain gives you.

I also want to point out that the rubber that gets worn off those 2 rollers might end up plugging an oil supply gallery somewhere in the engine or transmission. So yes, the roller/ball bearings probably can digest rubber, but it simply isn’t the whole story. I don’t see how any chunks of metal would come off my metal designs. And that’s what the oil filter is supposed to catch anyways.

The flattened/worn underside of the cam chain in Bill’s picture is real, I have seen that before, but I have to offer my opinion that the rubber tensioner wheels didn’t cause that type of flattening. It (again in my opinion) was caused by the crankshaft’s hardened steel pulley.

I tend to agree that using roller bearings or oil-lite to support the cam is overkill. But it’s still a good modification. Honda used roller and ball bearings in our engines. Maybe it was simply cheaper to run the cam in aluminum plain bearings. Or maybe they never expected to little cars to still be on the road in 2019. (Who would have thought that a $1500 car would last?).

There is one thing I want to mention. You MUST have either a like new or new timing chain as well as both tensioner wheels in order to use the roller bearings for cam support. You can’t have the cam trying to walk off to either side. It needs to run dead center just like it supposed to do.

I will paste in the link to a motorcycle site that has threads about roller bearing cam conversions. There are motorcycle roller bearing conversions on eBay now as well.

Richard
Bill
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:34 am

Re: [2cylinderhondas] Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus

Post by Bill »

Richard;             I went to the page posted here and at one point, I too felt this would be a alternative to aluminum bearings Honda used in the N600 engines.  But a very smart machinist, who not only owned his own machine shop but taught at the San Diego Southwest Community Collage, walked me through a number of obstacles this would present.  Because the N600 engine supports a mechanical advance assembly on the right side of the cam that end’s size would have to maintain its dimensions allowing for the drive pin to connect with the base of that assembly and retain its oil seal.  To which we couldn’t find a roller bearing to fit without adding to the shaft’s OD and machining to fit.  Then the bearing cap on both ends would have to be modified to fit the bearing and he didn’t think there was sufficient meat to hold the bearing housing/race.  The opposite end had similar problems as the timing notch also had to be filled, machined and cap modified.  A costly option, for sure but like anything custom – throw enough money at it and things can be done.  So here Richard is correct, it can be done, but is it needed?             Richard also mentioned that I have some clear rollers; these are in testing and will be for some time.  Using a used cam chain (so it would equal some of the ware properties of an engine with around 50K miles on it) to more quickly attain its chewing affects during testing, several 20 minute runs have been completed and these rollers and slipper have so far proved effective.  But more tests need to be done.              I might also add that Miles Chappell has done some parts manufacturing and modifications him self and moderates the 2cylinderhonda yahoo group.  And, knows these small engines very well.       Bill                 From: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com [mailto: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com ]
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2019 11:27 AM
To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [2cylinderhondas] Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus other mods.    
Here is a link to the motorcycle version of the camshaft bearings mods.
https://www.hondatwins.net/forums/48-en ... pics/31625

And finally, I suggest everyone pay attention to Bill’s responses. He is much more the expert than I am. But I still feel like I am correct, and Bill is also correct.
Buyers are faced with 2 opinions. It boils down to what you want to do. If it comes down to originality, you will not buy my stuff OR Bill’s new clear rubber wheels. You would only want OEM parts.

Sincerely and with a lot of respect to Bill,
Richard Morris
Richard Morris
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:28 pm

Re: [2cylinderhondas] Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus

Post by Richard Morris »

Fortunately, I have what amounts to a full machine shop. I have a 4 axis CNC mill, a large lathe, a smaller lathe and all the different welders available. So while I m out a ton of money for the shop, I am basically out only the cost of the bearings and whatever raw stock I need. 
Yep, there s not much meat left after the bearing is pressed on. (I have both 28 mm and 32mm od bearings). I am willing to try the 32 s as the Honda MC guys (the link) are using a bearing that ends up with not much bearing mounting area.  
I think or hope that anyone that s wanting this type of item is a performance oriented type person. That said, I am never going to be able to warranty my parts beyond their replacement. 
I am rather proud that I have made the steering rack bushings kit available once again.  And I have sold quite a few so far. Hopefully, I will be able to keep making more and more parts. 
Currently, I have just gotten material to make casting molds. I want to cast the lens cover that is used in the coupes overhead console.  (Anyone have one that won t fall apart for sale?)

Richard
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Steven Cunz
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:05 am

Re: [2cylinderhondas] Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus

Post by Steven Cunz »

I have a N600 with a new/ Rebuilt Steering rack and many other rebuilt parts RE chromed bumpers etc. My plan is to molest the car with a mid engine design using a hayabusa Engine . The current engine ran well as of a year ago with video evidence . I am willing to sell the car for a FAIR price numbers matching or the parts I won't need IE engine  I've offered the car before however fair to some seems to mean almost free! The chroming alone was 1200.00  I would be willing to sell the car with everything for 2500 firm I can deliver for a reasonable rate ,again, free isn't reasonable. The project will begin this spring so that's when the chopping begins . The only thing missing right now that I'm aware is the windshield it got broke . So there it is I don't love these things but I know many of you do so I thought I would offer it up before I molest it. Sent from my Verizon HTC Smartphone
----- Reply message -----
From: "Richard Morris tgm_enterprizes@... [anzhonda600owners]"
To: "anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com"
Subject: [anzhonda600owners] RE: [2cylinderhondas] Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus other mods.
Date: Mon, Feb 4, 2019 17:59
 
Fortunately, I have what amounts to a full machine shop. I have a 4 axis CNC mill, a large lathe, a smaller lathe and all the different welders available. So while I m out a ton of money for the shop, I am basically out only the cost of the bearings and whatever raw stock I need. 
Yep, there s not much meat left after the bearing is pressed on. (I have both 28 mm and 32mm od bearings). I am willing to try the 32 s as the Honda MC guys (the link) are using a bearing that ends up with not much bearing mounting area.  
I think or hope that anyone that s wanting this type of item is a performance oriented type person. That said, I am never going to be able to warranty my parts beyond their replacement. 
I am rather proud that I have made the steering rack bushings kit available once again.  And I have sold quite a few so far. Hopefully, I will be able to keep making more and more parts. 
Currently, I have just gotten material to make casting molds. I want to cast the lens cover that is used in the coupes overhead console.   (Anyone have one that won t fall apart for sale?)

Richard
Thomas Allen
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:34 am

Re: [EXT] Re: [anzhonda600owners] RE: [2cylinderhondas] Hi performan

Post by Thomas Allen »

  Do you have any pictures? Where you live?   Thanks, Best Regards, TEA   Thomas Allen Inventory Control/Supply Chain Henkel US Operations Corporation _______________________________ Henkel Adhesive Technologies
20021 Susana Road
Rancho Dominguez, CA 90221
Office: 310-761-4858 Fax: 310-764-5955
thomas.allen@...
www.henkelna.com   From: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2019 6:19 AM
To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXT] Re: [anzhonda600owners] RE: [2cylinderhondas] Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus other mods.     I have a N600 with a new/ Rebuilt Steering rack and many other rebuilt parts RE chromed bumpers etc. My plan is to molest the car with a mid engine design using a hayabusa Engine . The current engine ran well as of a year ago with video evidence . I am willing to sell the car for a FAIR price numbers matching or the parts I won't need IE engine  I've offered the car before however fair to some seems to mean almost free! The chroming alone was 1200.00  I would be willing to sell the car with everything for 2500 firm I can deliver for a reasonable rate ,again, free isn't reasonable. The project will begin this spring so that's when the chopping begins . The only thing missing right now that I'm aware is the windshield it got broke . So there it is I don't love these things but I know many of you do so I thought I would offer it up before I molest it. Sent from my Verizon HTC Smartphone   ----- Reply message -----
From: "Richard Morris tgm_enterprizes@... [anzhonda600owners]"
To: "anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com"
Subject: [anzhonda600owners] RE: [2cylinderhondas] Hi performance cam bearing mod for 600's plus other mods.
Date: Mon, Feb 4, 2019 17:59    
Fortunately, I have what amounts to a full machine shop. I have a 4 axis CNC mill, a large lathe, a smaller lathe and all the different welders available. So while I’m out a ton of money for the shop, I am basically out only the cost of the bearings and whatever raw stock I need.    Yep, there’s not much meat left after the bearing is pressed on. (I have both 28 mm and 32mm od bearings). I am willing to try the 32’s as the Honda MC guys (the link) are using a bearing that ends up with not much bearing mounting area.     I think or hope that anyone that’s wanting this type of item is a performance oriented type person. That said, I am never going to be able to warranty my parts beyond their replacement.    I am rather proud that I have made the steering rack bushings kit available once again.  And I have sold quite a few so far. Hopefully, I will be able to keep making more and more parts.    Currently, I have just gotten material to make casting molds. I want to cast the lens cover that is used in the coupes overhead console.   (Anyone have one that won’t fall apart for sale?) Richard
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