Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

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Bill
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:34 am

Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

Post by Bill »

Yes, this is not about a Z or N 600 but the tail is still true with any vehicle you’re purchasing in parts and your asking the owner to box it up and send it out.      Drew Hiram Lynch   By Drew Hiram Lynch

I've been restoring old cars since 1935, and have used Old Cars Price Guide since it became available. It has been an invaluable aid for me. However, one area that needs to be covered concerns cars that are completely disassembled. I, and others that I know, have been stuck bad from purchasing such cars. Let me describe just one:
I went to another state to look at a rare Packard convertible. It was stored in several containers. The owner and I agreed on a price and the man delivered the parts to my shop in four trips. I wound up with the wrong radiator, engine, transmission, and driveshaft. I had to purchase four more Packards to get all the correct parts needed to complete the car. After three years of hard work, and much money, I had a nice car. Needless to say, I lost money on the deal. After three such deals, I learned not to buy cars that were disassembled.
For several years, I've been acting as a broker. Now I just find cars for some people, and find buyers for others' cars. I've traveled to many states and looked at a lot of junk, which the owners think has great value. My advice to people is to make sure that the car is complete and together. Also, unless they have time, energy, money, and patience, I advise them to purchase a restored car that is for sale. The only car that I'd advise a person to buy disassembled is one that is rare, but that is also a valid reason not to buy it. For such cars, parts are unavailable, hard to find, or extremely expensive.
There are some other things that I warn buyers about. One is buying cars that have been in storage for many years – like 25 or 30 years. I bought a '56 DeSoto Adventurer two-door hardtop and a '47 Chevrolet Fleetmaster two-door sport coupe from a warehouse. Both cars were like new and both had low mileage. The water in both cars had frozen and cracked the engine blocks and ruined the radiators and heater cores. Both cars were repaired and turned out well, but buying them cheap is the only thing that kept me from losing money. These lessons learned caused me to look more closely before buying cars in storage.
Another thing I advise people to do is secure their car. Many collector vehicles are stolen for parts. Thieves stole the following equipment from me: a '52 Plymouth, the manifold and two four-barrel carburetors from a '58 Pontiac Bonneville, the manifold and four-barrel carb from a high-performance '68 Mustang, the front bumper from a '51 Ford, and the jack and tools from a Model T Ford. These items were never recovered.
chasgould
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

Post by chasgould »

With all due respect, this is pretty basic advice, and anyone who buys a basket case or disassembled car without being able to assess whether it is complete, or able to discount the value accordingly, probably also lacks the abuility to reassemble the car anyway. I know that a lot of people are tempted by cheap project cars, but my advice is to NEVER buy a project car unless you have resotered several cars and are intimately familiar with the process. Projects are not for the inexperienced, and you can almost NEVER complete a project for less than you can buy a completed car, unless a majority of the work (like 80%) has already been completed by the seller.As a side note, this guy was either the most unlucky collector in the universe, or he has made a disproportionately high number fo really bad decisions.Just my two cents worth.Chas
Eric Geiger
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:38 am

Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

Post by Eric Geiger »

where was the original posting to this response?  i didn t see the original post.




On Sep 5, 2015, at 10:40 AM, anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com wrote:





With all due respect, this is pretty basic advice, and anyone who buys a basket case or disassembled car without being able to assess whether it is complete, or able to discount the value accordingly,
probably also lacks the abuility to reassemble the car anyway. I know that a lot of people are tempted by cheap project cars, but my advice is to NEVER buy a project car unless you have resotered several cars and are intimately familiar with the process. Projects
are not for the inexperienced, and you can almost NEVER complete a project for less than you can buy a completed car, unless a majority of the work (like 80%) has already been completed by the seller.
As a side note, this guy was either the most unlucky collector in the universe, or he has made a disproportionately high number fo really bad decisions.
Just my two cents worth.
Chas





David Brower
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:50 pm

Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

Post by David Brower »

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I BOUGHT MY GOLIATH GOLI IN PARTS . 
THIS CAME FROM BRUCE'S COLLECTION BUT IT HAD BEEN MOVED SEVERAL TIMES AND I KNEW THERE WOULD BE SOME PARTS PROBLEMS . 

I BOUGHT IT AT A BARGAIN PRICE AND MUCH OF THE EXPENSIVE WORK HAD BEEN DONE . 
IT CAME WITH POWDER COATED SUSPENSION PARTS AND WHILE DISSASEMBLED , THE BODY PARTS HAD ALREADY BEEN RESTORED & PAINTED . BIG SCORE ! 

IT DID HAVE SOME MISSING PARTS . FOUR YEARS LATER , I AM STILL LOOKING FOR TID-BITS AS WELL AS HAVING TO FABRICATE A SEAT .  
I HAVE HAD TO SUBSTITUTE SOME PARTS MAKE A LOT OF STUFF TOO . IT WAS NOT THE DEAL I WAS HOPING FOR . WAS IT WORTH IT ? ABSOLUTELY ! I WOULD DO IT AGAIN . 
NOTHING COMPARES WITH SAVING A SUPER RARE ODDBALL LIKE THIS . IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A CRIME TO SCRAP IT . I SENT PICTURES TO BRUCE AND HE SAID I WAS A MIRACLE WORKER . 


On Saturday, September 5, 2015 8:44 AM, "Eric Geiger egeiger@... [anzhonda600owners]" wrote:


  where was the original posting to this response?  i didn t see the original post.
On Sep 5, 2015, at 10:40 AM, anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com wrote:
With all due respect, this is pretty basic advice, and anyone who buys a basket case or disassembled car without being able to assess whether it is complete, or able to discount the value accordingly, probably also lacks the abuility to reassemble the car anyway. I know that a lot of people are tempted by cheap project cars, but my advice is to NEVER buy a project car unless you have resotered several cars and are intimately familiar with the process. Projects are not for the inexperienced, and you can almost NEVER complete a project for less than you can buy a completed car, unless a majority of the work (like 80%) has already been completed by the seller. As a side note, this guy was either the most unlucky collector in the universe, or he has made a disproportionately high number fo really bad decisions. Just my two cents worth. Chas

#ygrps-yiv-1746023419
Bill
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:34 am

Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

Post by Bill »

Chas, how right you are.  But there are people who believe themselves able to complete the restoration only finding they are looking for things that are missing.  Having completed a number of restorations I have yet to get a complete car to start with.  Especially when manufacturers like Honda made changes by the month and not year.  I think the author of this article wanted to express that even though he has the experience he too was taken in by just being able to own a Convertible Packard made him overlook what might be coming next.  Had he been there to look over the parts available at the time of purchase he might have been able to see the project for what it really was.  Some times it is best to have someone who knows about the vehicle look it over when distance makes it hard to make their own assessment.  A parts car maybe a restoration project to another which is why being on a group like this helps to figure out what the car really is.     Bill
From: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2015 8:41 AM
To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

 
With all due respect, this is pretty basic advice, and anyone who buys a basket case or disassembled car without being able to assess whether it is complete, or able to discount the value accordingly, probably also lacks the abuility to reassemble the car anyway. I know that a lot of people are tempted by cheap project cars, but my advice is to NEVER buy a project car unless you have resotered several cars and are intimately familiar with the process. Projects are not for the inexperienced, and you can almost NEVER complete a project for less than you can buy a completed car, unless a majority of the work (like 80%) has already been completed by the seller. As a side note, this guy was either the most unlucky collector in the universe, or he has made a disproportionately high number fo really bad decisions. Just my two cents worth. Chas
Lyle Trudell
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:14 am

Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

Post by Lyle Trudell »

Bill and Chas, yep restoring a rare first time car is not an easy project. It rarely will be done at a profit. I like the challenge, kind of like putting a puzzle together with a few missing pieces. I have learned a lot by restoring cars, welding, brazing, sheet metal forming, painting, mechanical...... still learning. Keeps me out of the bars, sometimes. : ) 


-----Original Message-----
From: 'Bill' billmyong@... [anzhonda600owners]
To: anzhonda600owners
Sent: Sat, Sep 5, 2015 2:26 pm
Subject: RE: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

Chas, how right you are.  But there are people who believe themselves able to complete the restoration only finding they are looking for things that are missing.  Having completed a number of restorations I have yet to get a complete car to start with.  Especially when manufacturers like Honda made changes by the month and not year.  I think the author of this article wanted to express that even though he has the experience he too was taken in by just being able to own a Convertible Packard made him overlook what might be coming next.  Had he been there to look over the parts available at the time of purchase he might have been able to see the project for what it really was.  Some times it is best to have someone who knows about the vehicle look it over when distance makes it hard to make their own assessment.  A parts car maybe a restoration project to another which is why being on a group like this helps to figure out what the car really is.      Bill
From: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com [anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com?]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2015 8:41 AM
To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

  With all due respect, this is pretty basic advice, and anyone who buys a basket case or disassembled car without being able to assess whether it is complete, or able to discount the value accordingly, probably also lacks the abuility to reassemble the car anyway. I know that a lot of people are tempted by cheap project cars, but my advice is to NEVER buy a project car unless you have resotered several cars and are intimately familiar with the process. Projects are not for the inexperienced, and you can almost NEVER complete a project for less than you can buy a completed car, unless a majority of the work (like 80%) has already been completed by the seller. As a side note, this guy was either the most unlucky collector in the universe, or he has made a disproportionately high number fo really bad decisions. Just my two cents worth. Chas
chasgould
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

Post by chasgould »

Just to clarify, I am not advocating that nobody restore any cars. I am only saying that restoring cars is not for the novice, inexperienced or faint of heart, and that starting with a disassembled basket case complicates the project exponentially.
I am also saying that it is very difficult to restore a car for anywhere near the price that you can buy a completed car for, unless it is a very rare and desireable classic. You can buy very nice Honda 600's in the 4K to 8K range, and flawlessly restored ones in the 8K to 12K range. It would be difficult to restore one of these cars for those prices, even if you get the original basket case for $1,000 to $3,000.
I have tons of respect for the skills and abilities of those of you who restore these cars, and I love and admire the amazing cars that result from your efforts. I am thrilled that you guys are out there to save and preserve these cars. I am just saying that a newbie who comes into the hobby should avoid this temptation of buying a basket case restoration project because he is not likely to ever finish it, and certainly not for anywhere near the price that he could buy a running, driving car for, unless he can do ALL of the work himself, and if he can do ALL of the work himself, he is likely not a newbie!Having said all of that, I currently have two Honda Z600 cars for sale. Although neither is a basket case project, both do need some work to complete them. One is a very nice original car that I have just finished a comprehensive and properly documented engine rebuild one, but have not yet re-installed the engine back into the car. The second car has a beautiful restoration that is approximately 75% to 80% complete including a gorgeous paint job, but still needs to be completely reassembled and completed.
Chas
Bill
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:34 am

Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

Post by Bill »

Not trying to sway anyone from the project car, rather make new hobbyists aware of the possible shortcomings of disassembled projects.  It’s harder to see how things are supposed to go if they are missing or just a box of parts.  Shop and Parts manuals help, but many parts don’t have part numbers on them unless the person disassembling the car bagged and tagged everything with lots of pictures; the new owner is left without a clue.  Even publications such as Hemmings Motor News has “buyer beware” articles to caution hobbyists both sellers and buyers. Which as I said earlier, groups like this provides an avenue to find these things out.  Bill
From: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 6:29 AM
To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

 
Just to clarify, I am not advocating that nobody restore any cars. I am only saying that restoring cars is not for the novice, inexperienced or faint of heart, and that starting with a disassembled basket case complicates the project exponentially.
I am also saying that it is very difficult to restore a car for anywhere near the price that you can buy a completed car for, unless it is a very rare and desireable classic. You can buy very nice Honda 600's in the 4K to 8K range, and flawlessly restored ones in the 8K to 12K range. It would be difficult to restore one of these cars for those prices, even if you get the original basket case for $1,000 to $3,000.
I have tons of respect for the skills and abilities of those of you who restore these cars, and I love and admire the amazing cars that result from your efforts. I am thrilled that you guys are out there to save and preserve these cars. I am just saying that a newbie who comes into the hobby should avoid this temptation of buying a basket case restoration project because he is not likely to ever finish it, and certainly not for anywhere near the price that he could buy a running, driving car for, unless he can do ALL of the work himself, and if he can do ALL of the work himself, he is likely not a newbie! Having said all of that, I currently have two Honda Z600 cars for sale. Although neither is a basket case project, both do need some work to complete them. One is a very nice original car that I have just finished a comprehensive and properly documented engine rebuild one, but have not yet re-installed the engine back into the car. The second car has a beautiful restoration that is approximately 75% to 80% complete including a gorgeous paint job, but still needs to be completely reassembled and completed.
Chas
David Brower
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:50 pm

Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

Post by David Brower »

I AGREE WITH YOU CHARLES . 
THERE IS NO WAY TO TELL HOW MANY AMAZING CARS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED OR LOST BECAUSE SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING TOOK THEM APART . 


On Sunday, September 6, 2015 8:09 AM, "'Bill' billmyong@... [anzhonda600owners]" wrote:


  Not trying to sway anyone from the project car, rather make new hobbyists aware of the possible shortcomings of disassembled projects.  It s harder to see how things are supposed to go if they are missing or just a box of parts.  Shop and Parts manuals help, but many parts don t have part numbers on them unless the person disassembling the car bagged and tagged everything with lots of pictures; the new owner is left without a clue.  Even publications such as Hemmings Motor News has buyer beware articles to caution hobbyists both sellers and buyers. Which as I said earlier, groups like this provides an avenue to find these things out.  Bill
From: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 6:29 AM
To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

  Just to clarify, I am not advocating that nobody restore any cars. I am only saying that restoring cars is not for the novice, inexperienced or faint of heart, and that starting with a disassembled basket case complicates the project exponentially.
I am also saying that it is very difficult to restore a car for anywhere near the price that you can buy a completed car for, unless it is a very rare and desireable classic. You can buy very nice Honda 600's in the 4K to 8K range, and flawlessly restored ones in the 8K to 12K range. It would be difficult to restore one of these cars for those prices, even if you get the original basket case for $1,000 to $3,000.
I have tons of respect for the skills and abilities of those of you who restore these cars, and I love and admire the amazing cars that result from your efforts. I am thrilled that you guys are out there to save and preserve these cars. I am just saying that a newbie who comes into the hobby should avoid this temptation of buying a basket case restoration project because he is not likely to ever finish it, and certainly not for anywhere near the price that he could buy a running, driving car for, unless he can do ALL of the work himself, and if he can do ALL of the work himself, he is likely not a newbie! Having said all of that, I currently have two Honda Z600 cars for sale. Although neither is a basket case project, both do need some work to complete them. One is a very nice original car that I have just finished a comprehensive and properly documented engine rebuild one, but have not yet re-installed the engine back into the car. The second car has a beautiful restoration that is approximately 75% to 80% complete including a gorgeous paint job, but still needs to be completely reassembled and completed.
Chas #ygrps-yiv-1483027828
Bill
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:34 am

Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

Post by Bill »

Correct, and countless new or usable parts have been tossed because they were none descript to the novice.  That in itself shouldn't stop anyone from taking the challenge, but they should be aware.    Who's Charles?    
From: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 5:37 PM
To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

 
I AGREE WITH YOU CHARLES . 
THERE IS NO WAY TO TELL HOW MANY AMAZING CARS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED OR LOST  BECAUSE SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING TOOK THEM APART . 


On Sunday, September 6, 2015 8:09 AM, "'Bill' billmyong@... [anzhonda600owners]" wrote:


  Not trying to sway anyone from the project car, rather make new hobbyists aware of the possible shortcomings of disassembled projects.  It’s harder to see how things are supposed to go if they are missing or just a box of parts.  Shop and Parts manuals help, but many parts don’t have part numbers on them unless the person disassembling the car bagged and tagged everything with lots of pictures; the new owner is left without a clue.  Even publications such as Hemmings Motor News has “buyer beware” articles to caution hobbyists both sellers and buyers. Which as I said earlier, groups like this provides an avenue to find these things out.  Bill
From: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 6:29 AM
To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Old Cars Price Guide article that needs retelling

  Just to clarify, I am not advocating that nobody restore any cars. I am only saying that restoring cars is not for the novice, inexperienced or faint of heart, and that starting with a disassembled basket case complicates the project exponentially.
I am also saying that it is very difficult to restore a car for anywhere near the price that you can buy a completed car for, unless it is a very rare and desireable classic. You can buy very nice Honda 600's in the 4K to 8K range, and flawlessly restored ones in the 8K to 12K range. It would be difficult to restore one of these cars for those prices, even if you get the original basket case for $1,000 to $3,000.
I have tons of respect for the skills and abilities of those of you who restore these cars, and I love and admire the amazing cars that result from your efforts. I am thrilled that you guys are out there to save and preserve these cars. I am just saying that a newbie who comes into the hobby should avoid this temptation of buying a basket case restoration project because he is not likely to ever finish it, and certainly not for anywhere near the price that he could buy a running, driving car for, unless he can do ALL of the work himself, and if he can do ALL of the work himself, he is likely not a newbie! Having said all of that, I currently have two Honda Z600 cars for sale. Although neither is a basket case project, both do need some work to complete them. One is a very nice original car that I have just finished a comprehensive and properly documented engine rebuild one, but have not yet re-installed the engine back into the car. The second car has a beautiful restoration that is approximately 75% to 80% complete including a gorgeous paint job, but still needs to be completely reassembled and completed.
Chas
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